15 West Kellogg Blvd.

Saint Paul, MN 55102

City of Saint Paul

Minutes - Final

Legislative Hearings

Marcia Moermond, Legislative Hearing Officer

Mai Vang, Hearing Coordinator

Joanna Zimny, Executive Assistant

legislativehearings@ci.stpaul.mn.us

651-266-8585

Tuesday, October 21, 2025

10:00 AM

Room 330 City Hall & Court House/Remote

10:00 a.m. Hearings

Special Tax Assessments-ROLLS

RLH AR 25-98

Ratifying the assessment for Tall Grass and Weed Removal services

during June 27 to July 8, 2025. (File No. J2602TW, Assessment No.

268702)

Noecker

Sponsors:

Laid Over to the Legislative Hearings due back on 12/16/2025

11:00 a.m. Hearings

Making Finding on Nuisance Abatements

RLH SAO 25-58

Making finding on the appealed nuisance abatement ordered for 2016

FREMONT AVENUE in Council File RLH SAO 25-55. (Refer to

November 18, 2025 Legislative Hearing)

Johnson

Sponsors:

Referred to LH Tuesday, November 18, 2025 at 11 am (along with VAO

making-finding).

Moermond: the Council layed this over to November 5 so we’re continuing the

Legislative Hearing and doing the making-finding on November 18.

Referred to the City Council due back on 10/22/2025

Summary & Vehicle Abatement Orders

RLH SAO

25-60

Appeal of Emmett J. Owens, Jr. to a Summary Abatement Order and

Vehicle Abatement Order at 239 BATES AVENUE.

Johnson

Sponsors:

Grant to January 1, 2026 for compliance with items related to weight lifting and

punching bag(s), and grant to November 24, 2025 for compliance with balance of

orders. Grant to November 24, 2025 for compliance with VAO.

Emmett Owens, owner, appeared

[Moermond gives background of appeals process]

Moermond: I know you started talking about three properties

Owens: 233, 237, and 239 Bates are what I own.

Moermond: and today we have orders on 239 Bates you appealed.

Staff report by Supervisor Lisa Martin: we have current photos just taken this morning.

A Summary Abatement Order was issued October 10 to please remove and dispose of

the boats, contents, broken temporary structure, furniture, appliance, refuse and

debris from the property with a deadline of October 17th. There’s also a Vehicle

Abatement Order for boats, trailer, Cadillac, and a Bonneville.

In the photos, we have on the boulevard a bucket full of debris, wood chair, the yard

has a laundry basket, household items that are in the yard, white tables outside. East

side pride signs stapled to the tree, we will have those removed, you can’t put things on

the right-of-way, especially a tree. In the back it does show these vehicles, including a

temporary structure, a bunch of metal, weightlifting equipment, some chairs, orange

cones. Lots of exterior storage that isn’t allowed. We have a cat tree, punching bag,

more chairs, tarps and miscellaneous things being stored outside that isn’t allowed.

Owens: that’s all been taken care of.

Moermond: Ms. Martin, you have photos recently taken by an inspector. We’ll put them

up on the screen.

Martin: they were taken at 9:11 this morning.

Moermond: there are still some things that remain that are really not outdoor items.

She was looking at those as things to still be addressed.

Owens: that’s some of my gym equipment. I was in the gym this morning at 6 am. A lot

of the kids use it to work out. I’ve had the St. Paul police by twice; someone was killed

right across the street and they wanted to view my camera so they took the black

boxes out. I allowed that with no problem. I’ve been there 30 years; I own 3 of the

properties. They’re side by side town homes, total of 5. I own 3 out of 5. The other

neighbor, Johnson, he’s the one with the boats and jet skis back there. I don’t know if

he was informed to move them out? Everything is cleared up and looking pretty good.

Martin: notice went to all of the town home owners because for the back area with the

parking and vehicles and exterior storage, if we do a cleanup it is assessed to each

owner of a property equally. There’s no way of knowing what belongs to who. Ramsey

County considers it a common area therefore all of the property owners will be

assessed for a cleanup. We’d like to not do that, so if all of the owners could take

care of these items. I know you said you’re working on it, but there’s some white tables

out there, a chair on the boulevard, a bucket full of tree debris that needs to be

removed. In the back we had the vehicles—do they have current tabs?

Owens: yes, they do.

Martin and they’re all operable?

Owens: yes.

Martin: I’d need to see if there was a site plan for the structure approved. A lot of

storage out there in that structure and it all needs to go.

Owens: there’s only a car under there now. One weight bench I can move. I just work

and strength train. I had a snow blower back there.

Martin: snow blower, lawn mower, out door equipment is fine outside but any interior

things can’t be outside. Furniture. Weight equipment. That isn’t designed to be

outside. There’s a cat tree.

Owens: my neighbor loves her cats. My renter does. I’ll get that out of there. I got the

trash cans back there. It is pretty organized as far as I’m concerned.

Martin: keeping the boulevard grass cut as well. It looks tall.

Owens: I was going to do that today but its raining.

Moermond: there were more than just tabs—one had a tab problem, but looking at the

orders it says boats and trailers with missing parts, parked on an unapproved surface,

and flat tires. Are those things addressed?

Owens: yes. The boats belong to Bruce Johnson at 231 Bates, the very end. They

moved some this weekend and I helped him push it out to be removed. We would have

got more done if the weather would have held.

Moermond: I just wanted to double check. The black Cadillac? Just says unapproved

surface, so is that now moved?

Owens: I can move it to the street. I sometimes park up against my garage.

Moermond: and the Bonneville? Had expired tabs, appeared inoperable, and wasn’t on

an approved surface. You said you got the tabs taken care of?

Owens: I can go down and get the tabs if they’re expired, but it is one of my prized

cars and has the cover on it and the wind blew it off the last couple of days.

Moermond: it has last year’s tabs. You’re working on it, there’s a lot to do, I’m happy it

is underway.

Owens: my punching bag—I like to go and warm up sometimes, but I can move it

inside or outside or whatever with winter coming.

Moermond: what are you wanting to keep outside? It sounds like you’re asking to keep

the weights and punching bag outside?

Owens: yes.

Moermond: anything else specifically to discuss?

Owens: no, I can have all this moved. The cat trampoline and all that stuff. The

punching bag I can put that in the front and the chair I can use. I put it on my balcony

when its warmer.

Moermond: what kind of chair?

Owens: it is vinyl or leather.

Moermond: oh, the chair by the recycling container?

Owens: yes, exactly.

Moermond: that’s going to be a no. This is indoor furniture on the outside. It isn’t made

to be protected from the weather. Move it in.

Owens: indoors or outdoors or just get rid of it period?

Moermond: the doors? You want to keep those?

Owens: what doors?

Moermond: I saw doors by the recycling container.

Owens: I took that out of my house, I can probably bring it back inside.

Moermond: I think you should. The cat tree, you have someone picking it up?

Owens: I don’t want to keep it. My tenant loves her pets and the cats must have got

sick of it so she moved it back. I can get it disposed.

Moermond: do you all have individual cans?

Owens: yes, 3 are mine.

Moermond: with that City service you get a certain number of items you can have

picked up.

Owens: yes, I’ve done that. I’ve paid them.

Moermond: you call the City and they will pick up one bulky item a month for free. 12

per year. Free. The cat tree looks like something you could make a call on. We can

get you the number. I’m thinking you need time to wrap things up. I’m not thrilled about

the punching bag and weights. I understand they’re in use. Do you have a regular

garage?

Owens: yes. My prized corvette is in there. The other stuff I can make room and put it

in there, mainly I just need my snowblower to make the sidewalk safe for the kids

going to school.

Moermond: They can be used outside, but not stored outside. I’m thinking temporary

use is ok, but permanent storage isn’t ok.

Owens: I just love my weight equipment.

Moermond: the temporary structure is going?

Owens: yes. Two cars under there. My jeep Cherokee and my silver Riviera. I usually

keep covers on them.

Moermond: I’m inclined to say the weights and punching bag should be stored

someplace and then taken out when you want to use it. Permanent storage shouldn’t

be outside. For the weights and the punching bag, let’s say January 1, 2026. I’m

saying that far out so you have time to create the structure you are intending too. The

other stuff, you have it underway. It’s been a couple of weeks since you got the orders.

You’re about half done?

Owens: maybe more. If it wasn’t raining I’d have done something with the cat

trampoline. Punching bag in the house.

Moermond: I’m looking at a few weeks. Let’s say November 24th, which is the Monday

of Thanksgiving week.

Referred to the City Council due back on 11/12/2025

RLH SAO

25-59

Appeal of Philip and Kelly Oliver to a Summary Abatement Order at 597

FOREST STREET.

Johnson

Sponsors:

Deny the appeal, noting the property is now in compliance.

Kelly Oliver, owner, appeared via phone

Moermond: i have the supervisor for this area on the line and she says the yard is in

compliance now, it is taken care of.

Oliver: we’d been working on it, but we don’t know the guidelines and regulations and

citation was vague, so we wanted to make sure what was expected.

Moermond: that makes perfect sense. Right now the orders they’re using aren’t the

normal ones because of the computer system after the cyber-attack. This didn’t have

on there the max of 8”, which is the standard. That’s State law and City code.

Oliver: were they talking about the curb on both sides? Or the back yard? What we’re

they talking about?

Moermond: the boulevard, sidewalk and curb and the back yard where there’s just

grass.

Oliver: none of that was ever 8” tall. There was some decorative vines inside the

fenced area of the yard, that’s why we were confused.

Moermond: we have it addressed. I can see in the photos it looks kind of tall in

patches, which sometimes happens. Where you are at now is great. 8”, if you have any

questions at all, the inspector is a great point of contact. Ms. Martin, any suggestions?

Martin: I would always suggest calling in the inspector or the complaint line at 266-8989

and they can give you direction as well.

Oliver: and I called the inspector three times and never got a call back. That’s why I

called the City and asked what I was supposed to do. I didn’t want to be charged. We

moved here from Austin.

Martin: I’m also flagging the snow upcoming. Make sure sidewalks on both sides are

cleared full width and salted and sanded and access to the road needs to be cleared.

Oliver: I hired someone.

Moermond: I’m glad you’re on top of things. I’m sorry this was kind of a rude

introduction to local expectations. You’re in good shape now, the pictures weren’t

horrible, and i think you’ll be great moving forward.

Referred to the City Council due back on 11/12/2025

Correction Orders

RLH CO 25-8

Appeal of Nachman Goldberg to a Correction Order at 1809

YORKSHIRE AVENUE.

Jost

Sponsors:

Layover to LH January 13, 2026 at 11 am (due to stamp/Paulie transition).

Laid Over to the Legislative Hearings due back on 1/13/2026

RLH CO 25-11

Appeal of Kevin Debezelle, KJD Rental Properties LLC, to a Correction

Notice at 2043 ASHLAND AVENUE.

Coleman

Sponsors:

Layover to LH January 13, 2026 at 11 am for further discussion after review of aerial

maps and city code.

Kevin Debezelle, owner, appeared

[Moermond gives background of appeals process]

Staff report by Supervisor Lisa Martin: a correction notice was issued October 6

specifically 34.08 for parking and stored vehicles to immediately cease parking in rear

of yard except for areas in asphalt. I did get a copy of an approved site plan from

September 29, 2010 showing the set backs and asphalt added. That is not what’s

happening according to the

Debezelle: 2039 and 2043 I did right next door, but it was over 10,000 feet so we didn’t

touch or modify any of the parking and maintained what was there. We did modify or do

anything with the parking from what I’m reading on this as long as the gravel is properly

maintained I think it is ok? Or its for you to decide?

Martin: if you look at the two properties together, one has the garage. One looks like it

has an expansion of gravel. No delineation between parking spaces.

Debezelle: the very northwest corner was class 5 gravel that wasn’t properly

maintained.

Moermond: when was this?

Debezelle: I just purchased a year and a half ago or so. It was just neglected, weeds

with class 5 underneath that wasn’t maintained.

I think we’re maintaining it under 34.08. we didn’t modify anything that wasn’t. Just

maintained to create more parking.

Moermond: I’d like to pull the past maps on this, see what we have from the aerials

over the last several years. That will inform where I can go with it. I don’t know the

circumstance. It is very unusual to have a gravel surface in the middle of asphalt

parking. That wouldn’t exist since 2007 once it was deteriorated. I want to pull that

2007 policy to see how that was being construed at that time. We’ll add the aerial

maps. I’m thinking whatever the answer is it is already pretty late in the season to be

doing changes. I’m thinking ground freeze is the consideration. So, we’re talking

extensions into late spring of next year if you were having to make a change.

But I want to look at the 2007 police and get those aerials to review changes over time

and how that could impact how we interpret the photos and the site plan.

Debezelle: to be clear, if they want me to pave it, I’d love to pave it. I am not here to

contest the paving. Originally that was in our building plan, but they said we’d be doing

a site plan review.

Moermond: and it has already been through one, and it wasn’t that hard—that isn’t a

big deal.

Debezelle: ok.

Martin: I would suggest he goes to site plan and put in what he wants to do so we have

a clear understanding of what may happen.

Moermond: what is approvable should that path be chosen. Site plan doesn’t commit

you to doing that.

Martin: an idea of what would be approved and you can get some costs to think about

or to stop parking in the areas that are not approved.

Debezelle: or, potentially, put up a garage. Here’s the next part. I bought the one next

door; that’s also a registered student rental. I’m meeting with Yaya Diatta and the team

because it is 3 within the 5-year period we’ll exceed the 10,000 square feet. Can that

one be used as far as an assessment for this? This is a separate address but its also

all one development with the 3 properties according to City code.

Moermond: my instinct says no, but I’m not the one taking those applications. I would

suggest Yaya would have the best answer on that.

Martin: there is no cost to do a site plan. I’m assuming because it is by address,

unless you combined all the pins, it would be 3 separate site plans.

Debezelle: when we applied it was $695 for site plan review.

Moermond: it is worth talking to Yaya about, that isn’t consistent with Ms. Martin’s

understanding.

Debezelle: I’m building an additional duplex. So, it is new construction, but because

between the 3 lots we are now exceeding disturbance of more than 10,000 square feet,

which makes it subject to site plan review.

Moermond: when I hear this I hear yes, you could ask those questions in this process,

and there’s a difference between the site plan review you’d do for the new construction,

which is something you have to abide by. That’s different than the conversation we’re

having with this. This is advisory and the requirements for this parcel and this parking.

Don’t think you have to do that here, because we haven’t established that yet. We

could follow up by email or meet again; what is your preference?

Debezelle: we can meet again.

Moermond: right now, we still have the computer systems down, especially for past

information, so I’m going to push this. Let’s talk January 13th.

Laid Over to the Legislative Hearings due back on 1/13/2026

RLH CO 25-10

Appeal of Michael Haubrich to a Correction Notice at 1488

HAZELWOOD STREET.

Yang

Sponsors:

Recommendation forthcoming.

Michael Haubrich, owner, appeared via phone

Hannah Kenny, daughter of owner, appeared via phone

[Moermond gives background of appeals process]

Staff report by Supervisor Lisa Martin: Correction notice was issued October 3, 2025 in

regards to a camper that was connected with extension cords and hose which seems

as if it is being used as an illegal dwelling.

Haubrich: there’s no extension cord. There’s a cord rated for RV’s with its own circuit

for a circuit breaker. It isn’t a 110v extension cord. It is safe. Also this is a 2 bedroom

house and she sometimes spends time out there, but she lives in the house. Those

are the two items.

Moermond: it is an electrical cable providing power to the camper, is that fair?

Kenny: it was providing electrical with a 30 amp outlet with a 30 amp RV rated cord.

Moermond: when I hear these things it isn’t the fire hazard as much as creating a

dwelling unit. I like hearing it is at least the right cable at least. We’re talking about a

habitable space, Ms. Martin, do you hve more to share how you interpret habitable?

Sleeping is part of habitability.

Kenny: I live in the home.

Martin: the other thing, is if you’re cooking, going to the bathroom

Kenny: no.

Martin: most campers we see are stored ina driveway unless they’re at a campsite. If

we see one deployed the assumption is someone is living there.

Kenny: I eat out, I definitely don’t cook there. I don’t use the bathroom.

Martin: it appears to be being used as a dwelling.

Kenny: I maybe use it 2-4 hours a day, I sometimes do my makeup in there when my

dad is in the house doing stuff.

Moermond: I will tell you that if this were a registered Vacant Building, in City code it

would be one that isn’t approved for habitation perhaps due to a fire, unsanitary

conditions, in those cases a person can be in the building from 8 am to 8 pm and that

could be for purposes of repairs, remodeling, not living there. I want to go back and

see if reading that gives me better guidance on what we can do with this situation. I’m

glad to hear you aren’t living in the trailer. That wouldn’t be ok code-wise.