15 West Kellogg Blvd.

Saint Paul, MN 55102

City of Saint Paul

Minutes - Final

Legislative Hearings

Marcia Moermond, Legislative Hearing Officer

Mai Vang, Hearing Coordinator

Joanna Zimny, Executive Assistant

legislativehearings@ci.stpaul.mn.us

651-266-8585

Thursday, January 5, 2023

9:00 AM

Remote

9:00 a.m. Hearings

Special Tax Assessments

RLH TA 23-18

Ratifying the Appealed Special Tax Assessment for property at 1302

CLEVELAND AVENUE SOUTH. (File No. CG2204A1, Assessment No.

220113)

Tolbert

Sponsors:

Delete the assessment.

No one appeared

Moermond: we have a recommendation to delete. What is the reasoning?

Staff report by Clare Pillsbury: the property owner stated they were ill during the period

in question and therefore fell behind on bills

Moermond: when people are in the hospital they fell behind on bills, that makes perfect

sense. Recommend deletion.

Referred to the City Council due back on 3/8/2023

RLH TA 23-17

Ratifying the Appealed Special Tax Assessment for property at 1231

FARRINGTON STREET (File No. CG2204A1, Assessment No. 220113)

Brendmoen

Sponsors:

Reduce assessment from $83.36 to $39.49.

No one appeared

Moermond: you’ve talked with Ms. Suekut, what is going on?

Staff report by Clare Pillsbury: Property owner stated that they paid their Quarter 3,

2022 invoice. Hauler records do not show any payments made during Quarter 3, 2022.

However, the itemized invoice did indicate that the property owner was being charged

an additional $32.01 for service for a 64-gallon cart from May 22 to June 30, 2022.

Since haulers are unable to collect on delinquent accounts for pervious service

periods, staff recommends reducing the assessment to $51.35.

Moermond: you talked with her and she agrees with that?

Pillsbury: yes.

Moermond: any late fees attached to the extra amount we should be considering?

Pillsbury: there are late fees attached.

Moermond: so the $51 is inclusive of late fees, or those should be added?

Pillsbury: I believe so.

Moermond: we’re making sure late fees are removed since a hauler can’t collect on late

fees from a previous quarter too, so that brings us down to $39.49.

Referred to the City Council due back on 3/8/2023

RLH TA 23-16

Ratifying the Appealed Special Tax Assessment for property at 884

MOUND STREET. (File No. CG2204A1, Assessment No. 220113)

Prince

Sponsors:

Approve the assessment.

Larry Hall, owner, appeared via phone

Moermond: this is Marcia Moermond the City Council’s hearing officer. I also have

Clare Pillsbury and Sarah Haas on the line--

Hall: I’ve been trying to get ahold of her but I couldn’t’ get through her number. I wanted

to talk to her personally—

Moermond: she’ll be on the line in a moment. I know we’ve talked in the past

[Moermond gives background of appeals process]

Hall: it shouldn’t be just me and my wife, there are a lot of elderly mistreated on this.

Moermond: and it is great to get those comments on the record.

Hall: they did the same thing on our house, they threated to take away our house too.

You caught me in the middle of doing something that will take 5 mins. Can you give

me 5 or 6 minutes to finish what is important, and then call me?

Moermond: we can indulge you in that request. It is 9:28. We’ll call you back at 9:40.

[Hall is called back at 9:41]

Moermond: good morning again, this is Marcia Moermond. We left things off turning

things over to Clare Pillsbury to give some background on this assessment.

Staff report by Clare Pillsbury: the property owner stated they don’t use garbage

service. Hauler records confirm that the property owner received service for a 35-gal

cart with every other week pick during the time period in question. Therefore, staff

recommends approving the assessment.

Moermond: and to confirm this is for Quarter 3, 2022, originally billed in July. Mr. Hall,

why are you appealing and what are you looking for?

Hall: it has to do with people who are elders. Basically, they go through a time in life

where they are sick, they don’t have what they had when they are younger and had

jobs. Frankly, what they are doing is against rule of law. It isn’t a legitimate law. For

example, they have people in our ward that were told to create an ordinance that had to

do with garbage and write it down. I know the people involved in it. That is against the

law for citizens. Simple as you can say it. It is against the law for them to order a

person to pay for garbage when there is no garbage for one thing. When you have no

garbage you can’t be charged for it, that is fraud. It is the wrong thing to be doing.

People who are older are the ones who are your parents and paid for everything you got

as a child. The lawyers are the ones doing this. You don’t treat people like servants.

They did this for 2 years with my wife. It killed her. Put her in the hospital 5 times.

Moermond: did she die in 2018?

Hall: September of last year.

Moermond: so it hasn’t been that long, that’s kind of recent.

Hall: for 2 years now.

Moermond: so September of 2020.

Hall: it was on the 17th and I found out on the 18th, actually. We have had problems

here over the years. This house has a huge concrete type of wall and that has been

going down for a number of years. Something has to be done about it. People who are

on social security can’t afford to pay $50,000. We have got city complaints. They

wanted us to take our garage down. What happened right after this I got a letter

threatening they were going to take our house away from us. We’ve lived here not quite

50 years.

Moermond: when did you receive that letter?

Hall: a few months ago.

Moermond: a couple of comments. I did look up your property tax situation and it does

appear your 2022 taxes went unpaid. I’d suggest you reach out to the County and

there’s way you can enter into a payment plan so you get out from under any threat of

the property being taken since you’re working with them. I suggest that strongly.

Hall: she is dead and it was caused by them and their threats for 2 years.

Moermond: you have to pay your property taxes, sir.

Hall: I’m talking about garbage.

Moermond: the property tax balance is due and owing for over $3,000. That continues

to accrue interest and penalties. You need to talk to the County about it.

Hall: I live on $800. That takes away $300 a month. You don’t do that to people.

Moermond: you need to reach out to Ramsey County. I can’t help with that, that isn’t

under my authority. You need to look for a person called a navigator. We can get you

that information. Work with them before it is too late. With respect to the bill in front of

me today. I am not under any law to discriminate between young and old and who owes

bills. It is connected to the property. I’m sorry you are in a position where you aren’t

using the service. Under City law there is a requirement service be provided for all

residential property with 1 to 4 units.

Hall: the point is, they are forcing people to do it that don’t have it.

Moermond: that is right, everyone pays the same whether they use it or not. They have

heard from people situated like you. We have a 5-year contract.

Hall: they can arrest me now then.

Moermond: I know you want to be dramatic, but the concern for today is the larger

$3,600 bill that may cause you to lose your property. I don’t want to see anyone on a

limited income, losing their home. I’m sorry I wasn’t able to help with the tax

assessment on this. Your Public Hearing is on March 8, you are welcome to talk to the

Council on this. There is information on that in the letter that told you about today’s

hearing.

Hall: it killed my wife. She was in the hospital 5 times. Including the threat for the

house. It was done to her.

Moermond: I’m sorry, I don’t know how to manage your comment that this stress had

that impact. We all face this kind of stress daily and I’m sorry you feel it had that

impact and I’m sorry for the loss of your wife. I wish you well and I hope you talk to

Ramsey County about getting on a payment plan for your taxes.

Hall: I’ll be talking to lawyers.

Moermond: do that, because the process has started. You need to be in contact with

them, either directly or through lawyers.

Referred to the City Council due back on 3/8/2023

RLH TA 23-15

Ratifying the Appealed Special Tax Assessment for property at 845

WINSLOW AVENUE. (File No. CG2204A1, Assessment No. 220113)

Noecker

Sponsors:

Layover to January 19, 2023 at 9 am (unable to reach PO).

Voicemail left at 9:59 am: this is Marcia Moermond from St. Paul City Council calling

you about appealed tax assessment for 845 Winslow. We will try you again in a few

minutes.

Voicemail left at 10:07 am: this is Marcia Moermond from St. Paul City Council calling

you again. We’ve been unable to reach you this morning to discuss the assessment.

We’ll put you on the schedule to be called between 9 and 10 on January 19.

Laid Over to the Legislative Hearings due back on 1/19/2023

10:00 a.m. Hearings

RLH TA 23-20

Ratifying the Appealed Special Tax Assessment for property at 287

ATWATER STREET. (File No. CG2204A2, Assessment No. 220114)

Balenger

Sponsors:

Delete the assessment.

No one appeared

Moermond: sounds like you spoke with the owner?

Staff report by Clare Pillsbury: they stated they already paid their Quarter 3, 2023

invoice. Hauler records show the current property owner called April 1 to set up a new

account and the old account was never cancelled. the hauler requested that the

Quarter 2 and Quarter 3, 2022 assessments be removed. Therefore, staff

recommends removing the assessment.

Moermond: so recommend deletion.

Referred to the City Council due back on 3/8/2023

11:00 a.m. Hearings

RLH TA 23-19

Ratifying the Appealed Special Tax Assessment for property at 1153

CENTRAL AVENUE WEST. (File No. CG2204A3, Assessment No.

220115)

Balenger

Sponsors:

Approve the assessment.

Viviane Vaaj (Vang), Certificate of Occupancy Responsible Party and Contract for

Deed holder, appeared via phone

[Moermond gives background of appeals process]

Staff report by Clare Pillsbury: Property owner stated that they have a commercial

dumpster for the property therefore they should not have to pay for the City's garbage

service. As a residential property, it is required to be part of the coordinated collection

program with the City of St Paul. The property owner cannot cancel their residential

account. Therefore, staff recommends approving the assessment.

Moermond: so we have a commercial dumpster present in this general time-period. Ms.

Vang, why are you appealing?

Vang: when I purchased the zoning is for commercial and I’m being taxed as a

commercial owner. Because zoning is for commercial. That has been an issue since I

purchased. I asked Clare why I have two bills, one for commercial and one for

residential. I called another company and they said they can’t get commercial access

for me, but Waste Management allowed it. There wasn’t anything that tenants or owner

have to notify about vacancy. There was nothing about how haulers couldn’t be

dispatched. There’s nothing from the hauler confirming delivery. The service for

residential doesn’t work for me, that’s why I did the commercial. You have the

container in one location, you don’t have to move it back and forth. It is more than

what some people need, but I think it is necessary.

Moermond: the zoning is T-3, which is traditional neighborhood three, and a four-plex is

allowed. The reference you are making to Ramsey County taxation is they consider it

an investment property therefore classifying it as commercial. That classification is

separate from the City zoning. That’s all beside the point, the determination of whether

it falls under the residential hauling program is made based on the number of units of

the building. Four units or less within the building you are covered by the policy that

requires you to be a part of the garbage hauling program and pay that bill. If you so

choose, you could have a commercial dumpster in addition to that. Some people do

that during construction. That doesn’t exclude that property from needing to have

residential service under the current contract. I understand from staff you have

subsequently filed Unoccupied Dwelling Registration Form forms. I do think that is on

the website. I’ve referred people there before. I’m apologizing now that you can’t be

exempt from the program based on your preference for commercial hauling service,

but the key for this is the number of residential dwelling units. County considered this

income-generating property rather than you homesteading it.

Vang: because it is homesteaded. Again, I’m responsible for the trash.

Moermond: I don’t think it can be homesteaded because it is owned by an LLC.

Vang: it isn’t a homestead.

Moermond: you just said it was.

Vang: it isn’t, I just want to say it is commercial and why can’t you grant me a

commercial bin? Can you forward me to Council? I don’t want to deal with you.

Moermond: absolutely, your Council Public Hearing is March 8.

Referred to the City Council due back on 3/8/2023

RLH TA 23-13

Ratifying the Appealed Special Tax Assessment for property at 1771

DAYTON AVENUE. (File No. CG2204A3, Assessment No. 220115)

Jalali

Sponsors:

Reduce the assessment from $353.01 to $231.23.

No one appeared

Moermond: a reduction that doesn’t necessitate a call to owner because it is a hauler

request?

Staff report by Clare Pillsbury: correct. There were 2 accounts set up for the property.

This led to two invoices being generated for Quarter 3, 2022. The first was for $213.23

and the second was for $121.78. Since the invoice of $231.23 was for the initial

account, the hauler is requested that we reduce the assessment to this amount. Staff

recommends approving the assessment to $231.23.

Moermond: so recommend the reduction.

Referred to the City Council due back on 3/8/2023

RLH TA 22-445

Ratifying the Appealed Special Tax Assessment for property at 802

MOUND STREET (File No. CG2203A3-1, Assessment No. 220116)

Prince

Sponsors:

Approve the assessment.

Sadek Tahirou, owner, appeared via phone

[Moermond gives background of appeals process]

Staff report by Clare Pillsbury: Property owner stated that they were not the owner of

the property during this time period. Staff confirmed that service was being provided

during that time period for a 64-gallon cart, plus late fees. Since the current property

owner is responsible for all pending assessment on the property, staff recommends

approving the assessment.

Moermond: Mr. Tahirou, why are you appealing and what are you looking for today?

Tahirou: I wasn’t the owner of the property, and that wasn’t told to me by the title

company. I found out after when I was trying to refinance about the assessments. How

am I responsible for a service provided when I didn’t own it? I wasn’t aware of it either

as I closed on the property. It did now because it was added to the taxes when they did

pull title action. That’s why I’m asking how can I work with the City to find common

ground on this?

Moermond: from the City’s perspective I will say when you buy the property you buy the

pending debts, assessments, and so on. It is on the seller to disclose to the buyer to

disclose pending assessments, but also any existing orders or bills that could go to

the taxes. Those assessments do attach to the property, not the person. That is

something that is a private matter between buyer and seller to resolve rather than

interjecting the City into that title transfer. Why would the City subsidize that

transaction by having the taxpayers at large pay for it? It should have been disclosed

by your seller and that’s something you should follow up with them about.

Tahirou: the seller was someone under the influence of drugs. As we did the

transaction I was able to talk to the seller and they abandoned the house. I believe the

house was under control of the City before we bought it. It was boarded and all that.

That’s where it gets sticky. I don’t mind, but how do I do this? How do we settle on

something? I’m trying to look for answers on this. I get what you said we own it and it

comes with all those things, but this wasn’t’ disclosed to me.

Moermond: first, your seller being compromised by substances, that isn’t something

that would be legal for me to consider but rather how you and your representatives

decided how to proceed based on their ability. That is again a private matter. The City

didn’t’ take control. It may have been condemned and boarded, but the city never took

title. This was quite a nuisance property, hence all those assessments. Hopefully the

price you paid reflected the fact it was in this condition. I can’t look to the balance of

the taxpayers int eh City to pay for this. The Council may look at this differently. For

my part, I can’t take that into account. I can only look at this as a private real estate

transaction to which the City wasn’t a party.

Tahirou: I understand. From here it goes to the City Council?

Moermond: yes, on the letter informing you of this hearing there in information about

the Council Public Hearing on March 8.

Tahirou: where did that go?

Zimny: 5455 Smetana Dr Unit 1110, Minnetonka, Minnesota.

Tahirou: I no longer live there, I live at—

Moermond: and we can’t do anything about that here. You successfully filed this

appeal which means on its face you received notice. You can call 651-266-2000.

Tahirou: I didn’t get that letter if it was sent to that address.

Moermond: and again, I will say that you successfully filing this appeal is indicative

that you did get notice.

Referred to the City Council due back on 3/8/2023

RLH TA 23-14

Ratifying the Appealed Special Tax Assessment for property at 995

THIRD STREET EAST. (File No. CG2204A3, Assessment No. 220115)

Prince

Sponsors:

Delete the assessment.

No one appeared

Staff report by Clare Pillsbury: the hauler, Aspen, requested the assessment be

removed. The unpaid balance was sent to the City in error.

Moermond: so recommended.

Referred to the City Council due back on 3/8/2023

Special Tax Assessments-ROLLS

RLH AR 23-11

RLH AR 23-12

RLH AR 23-13

Ratifying the assessment for the City’s cost of providing Collection of

Delinquent Garbage Bills for services during July to September 2022.

(File No. CG2204A3, Assessment No. 220115)

Brendmoen

Sponsors:

Referred to the City Council due back on 3/8/2023

Ratifying the assessment for the City’s cost of providing Collection of

Delinquent Garbage Bills for services during July to September 2022.

(File No. CG2204A2, Assessment No. 220114)

Brendmoen

Sponsors:

Referred to the City Council due back on 3/8/2023

Ratifying the assessment for the City’s cost of providing Collection of

Delinquent Garbage Bills for services during July to September 2022.

(File No. CG2204A1, Assessment No. 220113)

Brendmoen

Sponsors:

Referred to the City Council due back on 3/8/2023