15 West Kellogg Blvd.

Saint Paul, MN 55102

City of Saint Paul

Minutes - Final

Legislative Hearings

Marcia Moermond, Legislative Hearing Officer

Mai Vang, Hearing Coordinator

Joanna Zimny, Executive Assistant

legislativehearings@ci.stpaul.mn.us

651-266-8585

Tuesday, November 15, 2022

9:00 AM

Room 330 City Hall & Court House/Remote

9:00 a.m. Hearings

Adjourned

Special Tax Assessments - Rolls

RLH AR

22-104

Ratifying the assessments for Property Clean Up services during August

1 to 18, 2022. (File No. J2305A, Assessment No. 238504)

Brendmoen

Sponsors:

Referred to the City Council due back on 2/1/2023

RLH AR

22-105

Ratifying the assessments for Property Clean Up services during August

12 to 31, 2022. (File No. J2306A, Assessment No. 238505)

Brendmoen

Sponsors:

Referred to the City Council due back on 2/1/2023

10:00 a.m. Hearings

RLH VO 22-33

Appeal of Tiffany Lee to a Correction Notice-ReInspection Complaint

(which includes vacate order) at 955 ALBEMARLE STREET.

Balenger

Sponsors:

Layover to November 18, 2022 at 9:00 a.m.

Appearances: Tiffany Lee, appellant

Moermond: - [Moermond gives background of appeals process]

I will say that what we are looking at in your particular circumstances is an emergency

order to vacate the premise. When there is an emergency order, I often have to put a

temporary decision on record that will last until The Council can make a decision itself.

That might be something that we might have to do at the end of this hearing. I am

going to ask you a couple question before we go to much further. First, have you

reached out to SMRLS (Southern MN Reginal Legal Services) or Home Line, for any

advise?

Lee: I have reached out to SMRLS but they talked about me not having any money

saved and that she hasn’t gotten any rent from me or Section 8 due to the living

conditions. With my work schedule we have been going to hotels, so I don’t have much

money saved. They never asked me the total amount, so they told me that they have

to deny my case because we have not been paying rent. With my work check I have

been saving up but not as much. The smell has been so terrible that some days we

would go to a hotel or we will pay somebody to stay at their house for a couple of days.

Moermond: Couch surfing with a little bit of a bill attached. Who do you have in your

family that lives with you?

Lee: Who lives with me? My two kids.

Moermond : How old are they?

Lee: 17 and 11 years old.

Moermond: So, it's the three of you dealing with this?

Moermond: Maybe the 17 year old in particular, might end up in a different location

than you and your 11 year old?

Lee: Yes

Moermond: Is the 17 year old still in school?

Lee: Yes, and he is working.

Moermond: How long ago was it that you contacted SMRL’s?

Lee: Probably like 2-3 weeks ago

Moermond: Did you talk to Home Line? Did either one of those organizations give you

any advice about ways to deal with your landlord on this matter?

Lee: No

Moermond: Have you talked your landlord?

Lee: She is not reachable.

Moermond: I want to find out basic information before we get to deeply into this. I start

these hearing by getting a staff report and have staff lay the groundwork about the

conditions and why they wrote the orders that they did. I am going to ask Ms. Shaff,

who is a supervisor at the Fire Inspections, if she can provide the staff report on your

appeal.

Shaff: My understanding is that you have a new place to go to? It’s just a matter if it’s

going to be in a week or two.

Lee: I put in my notice, where I am currently living for December 1st. I had inspection

on the new house for Thursday, but they failed due to minor stuff. I am supposed to

have a reinspection. I am just wondering if I am able to stay…

Shaff: On July 29th our department received a referral that the basement is being

flooded and not being cleaned. Basically, the sewage had backed up. Jack Toeller,

our inspector, responded. He had written orders and was there on 8/3,9/2,9/23,10/28,

and 11/4. Basically, the landlord had the sewer system jetted out. My understanding

was that the sewer system is doing what it supposed to be doing, however, when it

backed up there was humane waste on the basement floor. The landlord did not take

care of it or clean it. We still have an issue with sanitation. It is a health hazard to

have humane waste sitting out. The smell is pretty bad according to inspector Toller.

Moermond: There is a photo attached to the record. I am guessing it was taken at the

August 3 inspection. I am looking at the stained floors, assuming that the stain is

backed up sewage that is partially dried off and partially not. This condition has been

in existing since then.

Shaff: That we know off back in July.

Moermond: When was the sewage line jetted out?

Shaff: It looks like the company came out in September to do that.

Moermond: RBK is represented by a woman you said that… What’s her name?

Lee: Carolyn Brown.

Moermond: Carolyn Brown. You said that you have a Section 8 certificate and because

of the conditions I am assuming that since at least August neither you nor Section 8

have been paying rent on the place. It took until to September to get the job half done.

Lee: And then it flooded again.

Moermond: It was literally half done because it flooded again. Did they come out and

correct the second time? Re-jet the system?

Lee: Yes, however, she hasn’t had her team come and clean up the after math.

Moermond: Was there a clean up after the first time?

Lee: You are talking when it first happened? It was but it took two weeks to get the

cleaning crew out there.

Moermond: So, she did have the system cleaned out and did clean the floors.

Lee: It was jetted out and then it took her two weeks to get the cleaning crew out there,

however, it ended up flooding again. It’s been so many I can’t keep up with it in these

past two years. Out of the year it flooded over 12 times. It’s like every month.

Moermond: Alright, tell me where you are at right now with your living circumstance. In

terms of finding another place. I know Ms. Shaff touched a bit on that. It sounds like

from what you just said your Section 8 inspector looked at the new place had

somethings that need to be addressed before your certificate can be used at this new

property. Are those thigs being taken care of?

Lee: She said it was just minor issues. I am going to contact the inspector and see

how soon they can be going out. As of now we have nowhere to go.

Moermond: What’s the address of this new place?

Lee: 914 Edmund. It’s a duplex.

Moermond: We don’t have access to the Section 8 inspector records, but we have

access to other types of information that might be helpful. This is a Quality Residence

property and it looks like it was rated Class A and 2018 at its last inspection. Are you

working with Shatia Dimond?

Shaff: She is gone now.

Lee: I think its Randy or Kelly.

Shaff: Kelly Martin?

Lee: Yes

Shaff: Kelly is the maintenance director.

Moermond: Today is November 15 and you are hoping to have this available December

1 for move in. You have a few weeks from now until then. What do you think you need

from us?

Lee: I should be out by the 1st.

Moermond: To continue living there until the 1st?

Lee: I put in my 30 day notice with Ms. Carolyn, so I have to be out of there by

Dec.1st. My place should be ready before or on the 1st. I ask that I can stay there

until then. I know its unbearable, but there is nowhere to go.

Moermond: What I am going to do is take a minute and make a couple of calls. Did

you ask Kelly Martin, from Quality Residences if you can move in early?

Lee: I asked her, but I have not talked to her directly. The front desk folks told me if I

move in early I have to pay a portion of the rent which is $1,570, which is something I

don’t have. I saved for the deposit which is $1,570.

Moermond: Would the Section 8 folks help you pay a partial month's rent.

Lee: They said that they will pay starting the 1st but if I move in earlier then it would be

up to her.

Moermond: We’ve got to get an inspector in there. I am in a really bad spot in terms of

letting you go back into a house where it’s a health hazard. The sewer back up is a

health hazard. I asked Ms. Shaff to reach out to the address that you are going to be

moving to at 915 Edmund and talk to them about the possibility of an early move in.

Shaff: They said everything is done. With the exception that there was a low water

pressure in the bathroom. Did you know anything about that?

Lee: No. The only thing that they told me is about ceiling caving in the bathroom and a

couple of outlets. But then the inspector came in and said something about a smoke

dictator that kept beeping.

Moermond: Maybe they have addressed those issue and all that is left is the water

pressure.

Shaff: Other than that, is getting the inspector back out.

Moermond: That is one thing that I would like that to happen sooner rather than later,

and trying to work on the bureaucracy at PHA. With two things in mind can we get you

in there sooner and that is going to require an inspection and the paperwork that they

need. I am not sure when you gave your 30-day notice on the property you are currently

in. Did you give November 1st or did you give it earlier than that?

Lee: I gave it earlier than that.

Moermond: How much earlier?

Lee: I gave it to her in September.

Moermond: Okay, that is one of the things that they will look at, to make sure that a

legal notice was provided. Another thing that they would look at is the inspection and

getting all the contracts squared away. Quality Residences is a huge landlord.

Lee: I have dealt with them in the past.

Moermond: That’s good. What I was hoping is that we can get you hotel vouchers up

to cover sometime. In the past they used to give up to 5 days of hotel vouchers. What

I just learned from Ramsey County Public Health who have used these for people in

special circumstances, is that some families have gone to the hotels, where the

vouchers would be from, and damaged the units. Because of that, hotels don’t do

vouchers anymore.

Lee: Same thing happens with Section 8 Vouchers. Some landlords don’t take them

because in the past people have damaged properties.

Moermond: That’s why it’s no longer a possibility. I asked her if they can think of

anything that can be helpful in this circumstance because we are concerned that Ms.

Lee is going to be burning through her security deposit money to be able to pay some

place to live to get from here to the beginning of the month. However, Lauren Ross, of

the House Calls Program, did have an idea. If you get on the phone with her today she

will fill out an application for the Saint Paul Foundation to get you assistance to pay for

your security deposit. She can get you up to a $1,000. Its detail paper work to be filled

out. The hardest piece would be the document that you would have gotten that this is

what your security deposit is going to be. Do you have that paperwork from Quality

Residences?

Lee: No, she just told me that the rent and the deposit is the same amount.

Moermond: We are going to need a document from Quality Residences that says that.

I assume that even an email would be okay if it's from them.

Shaff: Lauren can probably help navigate that.

Moermond: Call Quality Residences offices and ask them to send you right away

something that tells you what your security deposit is going to be.

Shaff: I spoke with Sabrina, who answered the phone, and provided the information I

asked for.

Moermond: I don’t think it matters who sends this to you but just that you need this

sooner rather than later. Lauren is the lead social worker for the House Calls Program.

It’s a program that deals with people in housing crisis. They are in the City County

Public Health Department. It is not like a human services social worker, it is specific

to housing. She wanted us to give you her direct phone number. Lauren Ross

651-266-1285. If you have trouble getting a hold of her call the main number 266-1290.

We gave Lauren your name, phone number and email address as well as the two

addresses that are in play. The other piece is seeing if we can ask Section 8 to move

quickly to free up this unit. We need to talk to, your case worker. She didn’t picked up

her phone.

Lee: She never answers. She doesn’t get back to me until 3 or 4 days.

Moermond: I left a message with a higher up in the organization who would be able to

help us. He is out today and back tomorrow. What I would like to do to sort this out is

that the 3 of us talk again in a few days. By that time you would have already talked to

Lauren and get things squared away and hopefully have better information on Section

8. The last thing that we can do is try to convince Carolyn Brown to clean the

basement. That’s also an option is to have that taken care off and for you to be there

temporary.

Lee: Every time she asked for a clean-up I make myself available. I work two jobs and

my son also works. She comes at 6pm or she doesn’t come in at all. I can’t keep

taking off days to make my-self available and for her not to show up.

Moermond: Are you comfortable with her being there with the work crew without you

being there?

Lee: I am comfortable with that. She has never asked.

Moermond: I will start with that. We will do a follow up with that.

Shaff: Does Carolyn have keys to your place?

Lee: Yes, she does.

Moermond: Do you have time Friday?

Lee: Friday I do over nights. I work form 10p.m.-7:30a.m. and then I start my other job

from 10a.m.-2p.m.

Moermond: You will be available between 7:30a.m. and 10a.m.? If we can do

something between 8:30 a.m. or 9a.m. that would be the best timing.

Lee: That would be the best timing.

Moermond: You got to be at your other job by 10a.m. How long would it take you to get

from here to your other job?

Lee: 10 minutes

Moermond: If we go 9-9:30 a.m. that would work? I am sorry we couldn’t get you the

vouchers. I am going to ask you to hang in there while we push through. This $1,000

towards your security deposit can be process really quickly. If you reach out to Quality

Residences right away and have them send you something that is the main thing.

Laid Over to the Legislative Hearings due back on 11/18/2022

11:00 a.m. Hearings

Summary & Vehicle Abatement Orders

RLH SAO 22-40

Making finding on the appealed nuisance abatement ordered for 769

HAGUE AVENUE in Council File RLH SAO 22-29.

Nuisance condition is abated

Referred to the City Council due back on 12/7/2022

RLH SAO 22-51

Appeal of Tanya M. Elliott to a Vehicle Abatement Order and Summary

Abatement Order at 202 GOODRICH AVENUE.

Noecker

Sponsors:

Lay Over to November 22,2022 (unable to reach)

Appearances:

Tanya Elliot- No Answer

Moermond leaves a VM: Good morning I am trying to reach Ms. Tanya Elliot. This is

Ms. Moermond at Saint Paul City Council. I am calling you about your appeal for orders

202 Goodrich Avenue. It looks like we have vehicles orders and some garbage in the

yard. We will try and reach back out to you in about 10-15 minutes.

Moermond Leaves a VM: Good morning Ms. Elliot. This is City Council. We have been

trying to reach you this morning to discuss your appeal. I am going to continue this

case for one week, until November 22nd, which is a Tuesday . We will try reaching you

between 11am-1pm on that day to discuss this matter. If we are unable to get a hold of

you this will likely resolve into a denial of your appeal. We will send an email confirming

the details.

Lay Over to November 22, 2022

Laid Over to the Legislative Hearings due back on 11/22/2022

RLH SAO 22-50

Appeal of Johnny Barnes to a Vehicle Abatement Order at 1072 THIRD

STREET EAST.

Prince

Sponsors:

Grant to January 1, 2023 for compliance

Johnny Barnes, owner, appeared on the line

Moermond: [Moermond gives background of appeals process]

Staff report from Lisa Martin: On October 28, 2022 a vehicle abatement order was

issued to Johnny Barnes at 1072 Third Street East, as well as to occupants. It is in

violation. It’s lacking current tabs, and it has flat tires which would make it undrivable

and inoperable. It is a commercial vehicle that is parked in a residential neighborhood,

which is not allowed under our current code. There are photographs attached to this file

as well.

Moermond: Mr. Barnes tell me about your situation and why you are appealing?

Barnes: What did she say it was blocking?

Moermond: She didn’t say it was blocking, she said it lacked current license tabs and

that it had flat tires. Therefore, it appeared undrivable, and that it was a commercial

vehicle that was park in a residential area. I will turn it over to you to talk about why

you are appealing.

Barnes: I am appealing because it is on my property and has been sitting there for a

while. I do have plans to do something with the truck later because it is a unique

vehicle. My intention is to make it into a traveling car as soon as I retire within the next

couple of years.

Moermond: You want to use it eventually and keep it on the property. I guess I am

stuck with the fact that you got these code violations. It is definitely a commercial

truck and it’s definitely a residential area. It can’t be there. What I need to look at is

timing for it to be moved and it looks like you are going to have to get tabs and deal

with the tire situation to find it a new home. It sounds like you are going to keep it and

have a use for it. What the City is going to say is that it can’t be here in the meantime

or be there if keeps its commercial vehicle status. I am looking at what the logistics

and timing would be for you. I want to give you a chance to deal with this. You were

given a week to deal with this I understand that it is a tight timeline, especially given

what you need to do to deal with this. I am leaning towards January 1st of 2023 as a

window for you to work on it and get it moved to a new place, which will likely involve

dealing with the tires and tabs. Do you see any hurdles that would make it hard for you

to meet that deadline?

Barnes: No

Moermond: I am sorry I don’t have a better answer for you. I know it would be easier for

you to keep it handy. The code is just as clear in this particular point. What we are

going to do is send you a letter. If you want to talk to the city council on this, you

definitely can. For the moment I will push it out and say January 1st. An inspector will

stop by and check if it’s done. We will send you a follow up letter with contact

information if you have any questions at all that come up after this.

Barnes: I got to do what’s right.

Deny Appeal and grant extension to January 1, 2023.

Goes to Council December 7th

Referred to the City Council due back on 12/7/2022