15 West Kellogg Blvd.  
Saint Paul, MN 55102  
City of Saint Paul  
Minutes - Final  
Legislative Hearings  
Marcia Moermond, Legislative Hearing Officer  
Mai Vang, Hearing Coordinator  
Joanna Zimny, Executive Assistant  
Tuesday, November 15, 2022  
9:00 AM  
Room 330 City Hall & Court House/Remote  
9:00 a.m. Hearings  
Special Tax Assessments - Rolls  
Ratifying the assessments for Property Clean Up services during August  
1 to 18, 2022. (File No. J2305A, Assessment No. 238504)  
Referred to the City Council due back on 2/1/2023  
Ratifying the assessments for Property Clean Up services during August  
12 to 31, 2022. (File No. J2306A, Assessment No. 238505)  
Referred to the City Council due back on 2/1/2023  
10:00 a.m. Hearings  
Appeal of Tiffany Lee to a Correction Notice-ReInspection Complaint  
(which includes vacate order) at 955 ALBEMARLE STREET.  
Layover to November 18, 2022 at 9:00 a.m.  
Appearances: Tiffany Lee— In Person  
Leanna Shaff— In  
Moermond: - [Moermond gives background of appeals process]  
I will say that what we are looking at in your particular circumstances is an emergency  
order to vacate the premise. When there is an emergency order, I often have to put a  
temporary decision on record that will last until The Council can make a decision itself.  
That might be something that we might have to do at the end of this hearing. I am  
going to ask you a couple question before we go to much further. First, have you  
reached out to SMRLS  
(Southern MN Reginal Legal Service) or Home Equity Line, for any advise?  
Lee: I have reached out to SMRLS but they talked about me not having any money  
saved and that she hasn’t gotten any rent from me or Section 8 due to the living  
conditions. With my work schedule we have been going to hotels, so I don’t have much  
money saved. They never asked me the total amount, so they told me that they have  
to deny my case because we have not been paying rent. With my work check I have  
been saving up but not as much. The smell has been so terrible that some days we  
would go to a hotel or we will pay somebody to stay at their house for a couple of days.  
Moermond: Couch surfing with a little bit of a bill attached. Who do you havein your  
family that lives with you?  
Lee: Who lives with me? My two kids.  
Moermond : How old are they?  
Lee: 17 and 11 years old.  
Moermond: So, they are also doing the something with you. It’s like the three of you.  
Moermond: Maybe the 17 year old in particular, might end up in a different location  
than you and your 11 year old?  
Lee: Yes  
Moermond: Is the 17 year old still in school?  
Lee: Yes, and he is working.  
Moermond: How long ago was it that you contacted SMRL’s?  
Lee: Probably like 2-3 weeks ago  
Moermond: Did you talk to Home Line? Did either one of those organizations give you  
any advice about ways to deal with your land lord on this matter?  
Lee: No  
Moermond: Have you talked your land lord?  
Lee: She is not reachable.  
Moermond: I want to find out basic information before we get to deeply into this. I start  
these hearing by getting a staff report and have staff lay the ground work about the  
conditions and why they wrote the orders that they did. I am going to ask Ms. Shaff,  
who is a supervisor at the Fire Inspections, if she can provide the staff report on your  
Shaff: My understanding is that you have a new place to go to? It’s just a matter if it’s  
going to be in a week or two.  
Lee: I put in my notice, where I am currently living for December 1st. I had inspection  
on the new house for Thursday, but they failed due to minor stuff. I am supposed to  
have a reinspection. I am just wondering if I am able to stay…  
Shaff: On July 29th our department received a referral that the basement is being  
flooded and not being cleaned. Basically, the sewage had backed up. Jack Toeller,  
our inspector, responded. He had written orders and was there on 8/3,9/2,9/23,10/28,  
and 11/4. Basically, the landlord had the swear system jetted out. My understanding  
was that the sewer system is doing what it supposed to be doing, however, when it  
backed up there was humane waste on the basement floor. The landlord did not take  
care of it or clean it. We still have an issue with sanitation. It is a health hazard to  
have humane waste siting out. The smell is pretty bad according to inspector Toller.  
Moermond: There is a photo attached to the record. I am guessing it was taken at the  
August 3rd inspection. I am looking at the stained floors, assuming that the stain is  
backed up sewage that is partially dried off and partially not. This condition has been  
in existing since then.  
Shaff: That we know off back in July.  
Moermond: When was the sewage line jetted out?  
Shaff: It looks like the company came out in September to do that.  
Moermond: RBK is represented by a woman you said that… What’s her name?  
Lee: Carolyn Brown.  
Moermond: Carolyn Brown. You said that you have a Section 8 certificate and because  
of the conditions I am assuming that since at least August neither you or Section 8  
have been paying rent on the place. It took until to September to get the job half done.  
Lee: And then it flooded again.  
Moermond: It was literally half done because it flooded again. Did they come out and  
correct the second time? Re-jet the system?  
Lee: Yes, however, she hasn’t had her team come and clean up the after math.  
Moermond: Was there a clean up after the first time?  
Lee: You are talking when it first happened? It was but it took two weeks to get the  
cleaning crew out then.  
Moermond: So, she did have the system cleaned out and did clean the floors.  
Lee: It was jetted out and then it took her two weeks to get the cleaning crew out there,  
however, it ended up flooding again. It’s been so many I can’t keep up with it in these  
past two years. Out of the year it flooded over 12 times. It’s like every month.  
Moermond: Alright, tell me where you are at right now with your living circumstance. In  
terms of finding another place. I know Ms. Shaff touched a bit on that. It sounds like  
from what you just said your Section 8 inspector looked at the new place had  
somethings that need to be addressed before your certificate can be used at this new  
property. Are those thigs being taken care of?  
Lee: She said it was just minor issues. I am going to contact the inspector and see  
how soon they can be going out. As of now we have no where to go.  
Moermond: What’s the address of this new place?  
Lee: 914 Edmond. It’s a duplex.  
Moermond: We don’t have access to the Section 8 inspector records, but we have  
access to other types of information that might be helpful. This is a Quality Residence  
property and it looks like it was rated class A and 2018 at its last inspection. Are you  
working with Shatia Dimond?  
Shaff: She is gone now.  
Lee: I think its Randy or Kelly.  
Shaff: Kelly Martin?  
Lee: Yes  
Shaff: Kelly is the maintenance director.  
Moermond: Today is November 15 and you are hoping to have this available December  
1st . For move in. You got yourself a few weeks from now and then. What do you think  
you need from us?  
Lee: Until the 1st. I should be out by the 1st.  
Moermond: To continue living there until the 1st?  
Lee: I put in my 30 day notice with Ms. Carolyn, so I have to be out of there by  
Dec.1st. My place should be ready before or on the 1St. I ask that I can stay there  
until then. I know its unbearable but there is nowhere to go.  
Moermond: What I am going to do is take a minute and make a couple of calls. Did  
you ask Kelly Martin, from Quality Residents if you can move in early?  
Lee: I asked her, but I have not talked to her directly. The front desk folks told me if I  
move in early I have to pay a portion of the rent which is $1,570, which is something I  
don’t have. I do money saved for the deposit which is $1,570.  
Moermond: Would the Section 8 folks help you pay a partial months rent.  
Lee: They said that they will pay starting the 1st but if I move in earlier then it would be  
up to her.  
Moermond: We’ve got to get an inspector in there. I am in a really bad spot in terms of  
letting you go back into a house where it’s a health hazard. The sewer back up is a  
health hazard. I asked Ms. Shaff to reach out to the address that you are going to be  
moving to at 915 Edmund and talk to them about the possibility of an early move in.  
Shaff: They said everything is done. With the exception that there was a low water  
pressure in the bathroom. Did you know anything about that?  
Lee: No. The only thing that they told me is about ceiling caving in the bathroom and a  
couple of outlets. But then the inspector came in they said something about a smoke  
dictator that kept beeping.  
Moermond: So maybe they have addressed those issue and all that is left is the water  
Shaff: Other than that, is getting the inspector back out.  
Moermond: That is one thing that I would like that to happen sooner rather than later,  
and trying to work on the bureaucracy at PHA. With two things in mind can we get you  
in there sooner and that is going to require an inspection and the paperwork that they  
need. I am not sure when you gave your 30-day notice on the property you are currently  
in. Did you give November 1st or did you give it earlier than that?  
Lee: I gave it earlier than that.  
Moermond: How much earlier?  
Lee: I gave it to her in September.  
Moermond: Okay, that is one of the things that they will look at, to make sure that a  
legal notice was provided. Another thing that they would look at is the inspection and  
getting all the contracts squared away. Quality Residences is a huge landlord.  
Lee: I have dealt with them in the past.  
Moermond: That’s to the good. What I was hoping is that we can get you hotel  
vouchers up to cover sometime. In the past they use to give up to 5 days of hotel  
vouchers. What I just learned from Ramsey County Public Health who have used these  
for people in special circumstances, is that some families have gone to the hotels,  
where the vouchers would be from, and damaged the units. Because of that, hotels  
don’t do vouchers anymore.  
Lee: Same thing happens with Section 8 Vouchers. Some landlords don’t take them  
because in the past people have damaged properties.  
Moermond: That’s why it’s no longer a possibility. I asked her was if they can think of  
anything that can be helpful in this circumstance because we are concerned that Ms.  
Lee is going to be burning through her security deposit money to be able to pay some  
place to live to get from here to the beginning of the month. However, she did have an  
idea. If you get on the phone with her today she will fill out an application for the Saint  
Paul Foundation to get you assistance to pay for your security deposit. She can get  
you up to a thousand dollars. Its detail paper work to be filled out. The hardest piece  
would be the document that you would have gotten that this is what your security  
deposit is going to be. Do you have that paper?  
Lee: No, she just told me that the rent and the deposit is the same amount.  
Moermond: We are going to need a document from Quality Residents that says that. I  
assume that even an email would be okay if its from them.  
Shaff: Lauren can probably help navigate that.  
Moermond: Call Quality Residence offices and ask them to send you right away  
something that tells you what your security deposit is going to be.  
Shaff: I spoke with Sabrina, who answered the phone, and provided the information I  
asked for.  
Moermond: I don’t think it matters who sends this to you but just that you need this  
sooner rather than later. Also, the sooner Lauren can process this application for the  
money. Lauren is the lead social worker for the House Calls Program. It’s a program  
that deals with people in housing crisis. They are in the City County Public Health  
Department. It is not like a human services social worker, it is specific to housing.  
She wanted us to give you her direct phone number. Lauren Ross 651-266-1285. If you  
have trouble getting a hold of her call the main number 266-1290. We gave Lauren  
your name phone number and email address as well as the two addresses that are in  
The other piece is seeing if we can ask Section 8 to move quickly to free  
up this unite. We need to talk to, your case worker. She didn’t picked up her phone.  
Lee: She never answers. She doesn’t get back to me until 3 or 4 days.  
Moermond: I left a message with a higher up in the organization who would be able to  
help us. He is out today and back tomorrow. What I would like to do to sort this out is  
that the 3 of us talk again in a few days. By that time you would have already talked to  
Lauren and get things squared away and hopefully have better information on Section  
8. The last thing that we can do is try to convince Carolyn Brown to clean the  
basement. That’s also an option is to have that taken care off and for you to be there  
Lee: Every time she asked for a clean-up I make myself available. I work two jobs and  
my son also works. She comes at 6pm or she doesn’t come in at all. I can’t keep  
taking off days to make my self available and for her not to show up.  
Moermond: Are you comfortable with her being there with the work crew without you  
being there?  
Lee: I am comfortable with that. She has never asked.  
Moermond: I will start with that. We will do a follow up with that.  
Shaff: Does Carolyn have keys to your place?  
Lee: Yes, she does.  
Moermond: Do you have time Friday?  
Lee: Friday I do over nights. I work form 10pm-7:30am and then I start my other job  
from 10am-2pm.  
Moermond: You will be available between 7:30am and 10am? If we can do something  
between 8:30 am or 9am that would be the best timing.  
Lee: That would be the best timing.  
Moermond: You got to be at your other job by 10am. How long would it take you to get  
from here to your other job?  
Lee: 10 minutes  
Moermond: If we go 9-9:3o that would work? I am sorry we couldn’t get you the  
vouchers. I am going to ask you to hang in there while we push through. This thousand  
dollars towards your security deposit can be process really quickly. If you reach out to  
Quality Residents right away and have them send you something that is the main deal.  
That is what she told us. She would also need income information. Talk to you again  
Friday 9 in the morning. See you then.  
Laid Over to the Legislative Hearings due back on 11/18/2022  
11:00 a.m. Hearings  
Summary & Vehicle Abatement Orders  
Making finding on the appealed nuisance abatement ordered for 769  
HAGUE AVENUE in Council File RLH SAO 22-29.  
Nuisance condition is abated  
Referred to the City Council due back on 12/7/2022  
Appeal of Tanya M. Elliott to a Vehicle Abatement Order and Summary  
Abatement Order at 202 GOODRICH AVENUE.  
Lay Over to November 22,2022 (unable to reach)  
Tanya Elliot- No Answer  
Moermond leaves a VM: Good morning I am trying to reach Ms. Tanya Elliot. This is  
Ms. Moermond at Saint Paul City Council. I am calling you about your appeal for orders  
202 Goodrich Avenue. It looks like we have vehicles orders and some garbage in the  
yard. We will try and reach back out to you in about 10-15 minutes.  
Moermond Leaves a VM: Good morning Ms. Elliot. This is City Council. We have been  
trying to reach you this morning to discuss your appeal. I am going to continue this  
case for one week, until November 22nd, which is a Tuesday . We will try reaching you  
between 11am-1pm on that day to discuss this matter. If we are unable to get a hold of  
you this will likely resolve into a denial of your appeal. We will send an email confirming  
the details.  
Lay Over to November 22, 2022  
Laid Over to the Legislative Hearings due back on 11/22/2022  
Appeal of Johnny Barnes to a Vehicle Abatement Order at 1072 THIRD  
Grant to January 1 2023 for compliance  
Appearances: Johnny Barnes  
Moermond: - [Moermond gives background of appeals process]  
Martin: On October 28, 2022 a vehicle abetment order was issue to Johnny Barnes at  
1072 Third Street East, as well as to occupants. It is in violation. It’s lacking current  
tabs, and it has flat tires which would make it undrivable and inoperable. It is a  
commercial vehicle that is parked in a residential neighborhood, which is not allowed  
under our current code. There are photographs attached to this file as well.  
Moermond: Mr. Barnes tell me about your situation and why you are appealing?  
Barnes: What did she say it was blocking?  
Moermond: She didn’t say it was blocking, she said it lacked current license tabs and  
that it had flat tires. Therefore, it appeared undrivable, and that it was a commercial  
vehicle that was park in a residential area. I will turn it over to you to talk about why  
you are appealing.  
Barnes: I am appealing because it is on my property and sitting there for a while. I do  
have plans to do something with the truck latter because it is a unique vehicle. My  
intention is to make it into a traveling car as soon as I retire within the next couple of  
years when I retire.  
Moermond: You want to use it eventually and keep it on the property. I guess I am  
stuck with that you got these code violations. It is definitely a commercial truck and  
it’s defiantly a residential area. It can’t be there. What I need to look at is timing for it  
to be moved and it looks like you are going to have to get tabs and deal with the tire  
situation to find it a new home. It sounds like you are going to keep it and have a use  
for it. What the City is going to say is that it can’t be here in the meantime or be there  
if keeps its commercial vehicle status. I am looking at what the logistics and timing  
would be for you. I don’t want to be unreasonable. I want to give you a chance to deal  
with this. You were given a week to deal with this I can totally get that it is a tight  
timeline, especially given what you need to do to deal with this. I am leaning towards  
January 1st of 2023 as a window for you to work on it and get it moved to a new place,  
as well as dealing with the tires and tabs. That’s where we are at right now. Do you see  
any hurdles that would make it hard for you to meet that deadline?  
Barnes: No  
Moermond: I am sorry I don’t have a better answer for you. I know it would be easier for  
you to keep it handy. The code is just as clear in this particular point. What we are  
going to do is send you a letter. If you want to talk to the city council on this, you  
definitely can. For the moment I will push it out and say January 1st. An inspector will  
stop by and check if it’s done. We will send you a follow up letter with contact  
information if you have any questions at all that come up after this.  
Barnes: I got to do what’s right.  
Deny Appeal and grant extension to January 1,2023.  
Goes to Council December 7th  
Referred to the City Council due back on 12/7/2022