15 West Kellogg Blvd.  
Saint Paul, MN 55102  
City of Saint Paul  
Minutes - Final - Final  
Rent Stabilization Appeal Hearings  
Marcia Moermond, Legislative Hearing Officer  
Sonia Romero, Executive Assistant  
rentappeals@ci.stpaul.mn.us  
651-266-8568  
Monday, June 26, 2023  
12:30 PM  
Room 330 City Hall & Court House  
12:30 p.m. Hearings  
Bailey Miracle and Rachel Waters, Appellants and Tenants  
Joe Collins and Ben Herding, Landlords  
Lynne Ferkinhoff and Demetrius Sass, DSI Staff  
Moermond: It's my job to hear your appeal on behalf of the City Council. What I need  
to do is develop a recommendation for their consideration. I'm giving them a  
recommendation. If you and the owner are okay with what that recommendation, or  
don't object, the Council will adopt the resolution without discussion. If for any reason  
you are not okay with what I'm recommending to the City Council, this goes forward  
on a “public hearing consent agenda.” The Council Member will talk about it and you  
will be given an opportunity to speak, as well as other interested parties. What I like  
to do in this process is to start out with the staff report and have staff describe their  
reasoning in reviewing the application and making their determination. In this  
particular case, we have a self-certification application, which means that it can be  
filed online and that the owner is to retain supporting documents and if they're  
requested they need to be brought forward. As soon as you file an appeal, I request  
those documents be submitted to my office and we share them with the Department  
of Safety and Inspection (DSI) staff. So, the application for a 3% to 8% exception to  
the rent control cap receives the same kind of review that would be given to an  
application for a higher rent increase. I believe that these documents have also been  
made available to you both. What I will be asking of you, as appellants, is what why  
are you appealing and what are you looking for in the appeals process? You provided  
a nice amount of information, good background on what you're looking for and why. I  
will hear then from the property ownership representation. However, anybody who's  
interested in the case and wants to speak will be heard before we wrap up. For most  
of the cases I do, I don't arrive at a conclusion as we're sitting here, I go away with  
the information that I've heard and the documents have been presented. I look at it all  
and develop a letter that I would sent to you all and copying the owners with what my  
recommendation. When you get that, it will have a public hearing date. Sonia  
Romero, will confer with people to make sure that the public hearing date is  
something that would work for everyone. A final determination on the application has  
not been yet made and as soon as you file an appeal, the rent increase is stayed,  
frozen. Once The Council votes the stay goes away and then things move forward.  
We have Lynn Ferkinhoff and Demetrius Sass from the Department of Safety and  
Inspections. They are the staff who work in rent stabilization there. I'll ask them to get  
us started and then we'll talk with you.  
Ferkinhoff: On April 19, 2023, the Department of Safety & Inspections (DSI) received  
a self-certified application for an exception to the 3% rent increase cap per Ordinance  
193A for 696 Conway Street. Megan Peterson, an employee of Housing Hub,  
submitted the application on behalf of Fair Housing LLC, which is listed as the owner  
of the property. The intake form is part of the record. The application notes that the  
requested increase: 1) will comprise the entire building; 2) will not be consistent  
across all units; and 3) will take effect on July 1, 2023. DSI staff understands that  
there are three units in the building. Unit 1 was noted as “vacant” at the time of  
application, with a possible “move in” during May 2023. The reasons for the rent  
increase listed in the application include: 1) an increase in housing services; 2) an  
increase in real property taxes; and 3) an unavoidable increase in operating  
expenses. Per the self-certification process, the application was automatically  
approved. On May 12, 2023, an approval letter was sent to Ms. Peterson. Letters  
were mailed to the tenants on May 10, 2023 (Unit 2) and May 12, 2023 (Unit 1 and  
Unit 3). For self-certification, applicants are required to provide several pieces of  
information from the worksheet used to calculate Maintenance of Net Operating  
Income or “MNOI.” The information includes: 1) current year gross scheduled Rental  
income; 2) fair net operating income; 3) missed fair revenue; and 4) allowable rent  
increase (missed fair revenue /current year gross scheduled rental income). Staff  
verified that current year gross scheduled rental income and allowable rent increase  
were incorrect in the application as submitted. Staff worked with the applicant to try to  
correct the information. The following are updates to the data provided from the  
original application: current year gross scheduled rental income  
$23,352.00; fair net operating income from $13,807 to $15,749; missed fair revenue  
from $14,996 to $5,815; and allowable rent increase from $416.56 to 24.91%.  
from $11,724 to  
Note that the actual allowed rent increase in the self-certification process may be  
between 3% to 8%. This is a Class B property with one complaint to date in 2023.  
The complaint is currently under review.  
Moermond: Just to reiterate, looking at the math on the reasons why it could be  
increased under Chapter 193A, it shows up as having an allowable increase of up to  
24.91%. The application was self-certified and therefore capped at 8%.  
Moermond: The increase in housing services, do we have any sort of a statement  
about what that would be?  
Ferkinhoff: No, I don't believe that we received that.  
Moermond: The operating expenses in the property taxes would have had a  
confirmation from you folks though. One last question, in the section of the code that  
talks about reasonable return on investment, it says the city shall establish a process  
by which landlords can request exemptions to the limitation on rent increases based  
on the right of reasonable return on investment. It appears to me that some of the  
factors listed would be justifications for a decrease to the level of exception to the  
cap. For example, housing conditions wouldn't have been evaluated as part of what  
you are looking at. I'm seeing this is considered a Class B property by Fire  
Inspections, and there is an open order without further review from Rent Stabilization  
staff.  
Waters: This number right here, the allowable rent increase, is it reflective of what  
would it actually be? Because you said it could be capped at 8% or possibly less than  
8 % percent of the rent.  
Moermond: Correct, the application asked for an increase between 3 and 8%. It didn't  
ask for anything higher than that. They ran the math to see if it checked out, 8%  
checks out. The 24.91% isn't the number we're going to concern ourselves with,  
except that it's that many percentage points higher than 8%. There are 9 individual  
points listed that can be evaluated and we talked about the ones they are using to  
justify the increase. Your appeal seems to be about things that would justify a  
decrease, and that decrease could be a decrease from the 8%. So, we need to have  
a conversation about what you've been experiencing. I need to figure out how I need  
to analyze that in the context of the appeal and their application. You provided a lot of  
background information, and before I go there did you have questions right now? You  
had the 24.91% question. Did you have anything else jumped out at you?  
Waters: I guess just the application for the rent increase that was granted based of  
their evidence, but our evidence wasn't considered before that, so this is now where  
our evidence is considered?  
Moermond: Correct, I need to respond back that they submitted information, and the  
process is almost automatic when the requested increase is between 3 and 8%. The  
online application to apply for a 3% to 8% rent increase receives minimal staff review.  
The real staff review happens once you file the appeal, we get all the paperwork in,  
and staff do a full analysis. There are post cards that go out, and the first one, it's  
simply a heads up an application has been made. The second one is a heads up that  
a determination has been made and says that if you disagree with that determination.  
I have a proposed lease and an old lease, so we can compare them.  
Waters: Starting from the beginning. This is our first rental unit, and we were  
expecting a little bit different. From the beginning things haven't been as we're told,  
and as it has been written down in our lease. We're told that community/share areas  
were going to be maintained by their maintenance team, and that snow removal more  
than 2 inches will be taken care of by their maintenance. There are are also specific  
terms of the lease that cover when other tenants knowingly put us in actual danger.  
There was very limited response until we kind of got a little bit more aggressive. I  
don't want to have to deal with lawyers. I just want to be safe at the one place I am  
supposed to feel safe. There was a dog that was downstairs and it attacked her  
[Bailey Miracle] nipping the back of her leg.  
Moermond: What did you do in that circumstance. Did you make any calls or  
complaints?  
Miracle: We have called the police a few times because that's not the only kind of bad  
thing the dog did. The owner of the dog was a lady in a wheelchair, and this dog is  
very aggressive. He is cooped up in that unit and whenever they would let him out,  
he would just attack anybody down the street. He would run-up at our car and scratch  
our car window. We couldn't get out of our own car; and would be stuck in our car  
until the lady would bring her dog back in. It's been snowy and they didn't keep up  
with all snow removal. We've had to run away from the dog in the snow. It got icy, to  
the point where we have hurt ourselves. The cops said that they can't do anything  
about it because the landlord wasn't there, and that he had to be present. We called  
the cops twice because then it started getting really bad. The people downstairs  
knew we didn't like their dog and we started having issues with them. They were kind  
of nasty people. They finally left, and we complained a lot to the Housing Hub people  
about the nasty things that they would do to us and how they would retaliate by  
sending their dog on us and they wouldn’t call him back. The lady was kind of evil.  
Moermond: Do you have this person's name?  
Waters: We only remember her first time. I think her name was Gwyn.  
Moermond: Did you make a police report?  
Waters: We called they didn't seem to do anything. It was a woman officer and a  
male officer that showed up and basically said, I don't really know what you want me  
to do. There's no blood, it was bruised, so there's not really anything we can do about  
it. You can complain to your landlord.  
Moermond: The reason I'm coming back on that is because I don't think that was  
good. I personally think the right response is to say, let's get Animal Control involved.  
If a dog has bitten somebody, that needs to be investigated. I'm kind of disappointed  
in the lack of more information but I just wanted to say to you that there is a process  
for dealing with that. This is not necessarily a situation where the landlord needs to  
make that call. So, this is happening with the dog downstairs it was some kind of a  
service dog for a woman in the wheelchair?  
Waters: We should not have to deal with this because Housing Hub recognizes that  
certain breeds of dogs shouldn’t be in their properties due to the aggressive nature.  
In the lease it stated that type of dog specifically should not even be on the property.  
We brought that to their attention and our response was that the dog had been  
grandfathered in from a previous tenant. But it’s still a lease violation and so is all the  
poop in the lawn and not being on a leash. It got to the point where it felt like we were  
banging our head against the wall because, who do you call? We call the office, and  
we have a recording of them saying we have numerous letters actually in the past  
about this dog. I don't know why they weren’t followed up on. They have the  
knowledge; they have letters and complains about the dog before and the dog was  
still there, and we got attacked by it and traumatized. That's just within the first 3  
months we moved in.  
Moermond: When did you move in?  
Waters: It was I believe it was on July 1st of 2021 would have been our initial move in  
date.  
Moermond: Did that tenant live there at the time you moved in?  
Waters: Yes.  
Moermond: That's a long-term of thing you're struggling with.  
Waters: Yes. We have been given notice about the dog and I don't believe the  
tenants downstairs had left. It was probably about 7 months or more than that. I  
understand eviction is a process and it takes a long time but if the violations were  
there before, and there was that many of them, I don't think we should have been put  
in that predicament in the first place. Secondly, there was a vehicle that was parked  
in a driveway when we first moved in. We had asked the tenants initially is this your  
vehicle. How are we going to work out the parking situation? They said, oh no it's not  
their vehicle they don't know whose it is. We ended up calling Housing Hub to see if  
they could have it towed, and they said that we need to call the police. Anyway, we  
had to call the police for it, and they ran the license plate on the car, and found out  
that it's a car that had been recently doing some type of criminal activity. I don't want  
that there, you know? All during this time there is a wasp infestation in the window  
that's above that truck and they're coming in. They stung me, her [Bailey Miracle],  
and they also stung my cat numerous times. We had to live with those wasps for  
those 3 weeks, and that truck was still there because we kept putting in requests  
about it. We kept saying, can you please kill this wasp nest, or can you seal the  
windows because they keep getting in. They had known from moving date that the  
windows were not sealed, and they said they were not going to do anything about  
that but that's a different point. These wasps are still getting in and they're sending a  
maintenance guy out and getting frustrated that he can't do anything about it because  
the truck still there. He's frustrated that he can't do anything about it. We are still  
having to deal with the wasps for this entire 3 weeks. I understand you're supposed  
to get a certain my notice to get a vehicle towed, but I'm pretty sure it's not 3 weeks.  
They actually never came and eliminated There's no snow removal or ice removal at  
all. When you walk out there, and they let the dog out you're just running on ice. We  
were scared for our life and even talking about I'm shaking. It really brings out  
traumatizing memories.  
Miracle: We missed out on a lot of work because of that dog. We would look out the  
window and see if he's out because that lady would leave him out for a very long  
time. He wasn’t on a leash or anything he was just pooping in the yard or the  
neighbor's yard. We would look out the window to see if we can make an escape to  
our car because I had to go to work in the morning and I couldn't even start a new job  
at that point. It didn't work out because I couldn’t make it to work because there's  
literally a killer dog outside. He would come up to our unit door and sniff under the  
door and scratch it and growl because he could smell my cat. A lot of the times we  
would want to get food delivered to our house and we couldn’t go down to the front  
door to get our food, so our food just sat there, and we just paid money for no reason  
for that food. I started doing grocery delivery services so I can make my own  
schedule specifically for that reason because I can't be on time to go to work during  
that specific time because he was out there. I never knew when he would be out or  
not which it made it really impossible to work.  
Waters: People shouldn’t have to go through this. Also, about that truck situation we  
had let Housing Hub know about it. They asked if we could take a picture knowing we  
already had issues with the tenants downstairs. They asked if we can please take a  
picture of the truck so they can know what it looked like. They take the picture that we  
clearly sent from our upstairs to us in a mass email asking if you know whose truck  
this is and that it needs to be moved the next day. Next day we come out and our  
tires have been popped. I wonder why? Maybe from retaliation. We expressed this to  
the office, and they said that they didn’t have anything to do with that and if you have  
any evidence to file a police report. No, I don't have evidence of these people  
popping my tire at 3 in the morning while I am asleep, but I know that they did it.  
There's black mold all over the ceiling. I just can't begin to start naming a list of  
problems the basement flooded completely. We're told we can't use our bathtub  
because it floods in the downstairs unit. Where in my lease does it say I can’t take a  
bath? I think that's up to you to be fixing that.  
Miracle: There is no ventilation in the bathroom so, it's really steamy and everything  
is just dripping in the bathroom, and the towels are damp. We are told that there's no  
ventilation in the house and that it's hot and moist and that no air circulates  
anywhere. Their response was to just open the window. It was wintertime and also  
the windows are literally like hip level, well the one of the bathroom is, so if I'm  
showering and the window is at hip level you can see stuff.  
Waters: You should have privacy in your own bathroom, and not to mention because  
there's no ventilation, so there's mold because if there's going to be heat there is  
going to be moisture, and there is going to be darkness, and that's where mold loves  
to be. All they do is cover it. The house itself, the floors are caving, and it is probably  
due to the moisture, and there are also splinters. We can't even walk in our house  
without sandals on because we're going to get splinters and our cat also gets  
splinters. We have to pull splinters out of her feet weekly from that. We've ended up  
just keeping our cat in her own room so that that doesn't happen anymore. But that's  
not something that we should be having to do. I shouldn’t be making all these  
compromises at all. The most recent was the attic, and our original lease we were  
allowed to store in the attic and basement. I don’t know when that changed. When we  
moved in, the tenants that we're downstairs they didn't have their things in the  
basement because the condition of the attic and the basement were both terrible, and  
everything was open to the outside. This house is not sealed from the outside and so  
there have been, ants, wasp, roaches, mice, and even a rat. We can't get our (AC)  
unit to get below 80 degrees right now because the circuitry is bad in the house. Also,  
it will not allow to have more than one AC unit running at once. You can’t plug in a  
vacuum and have the AC on at the same time. If I want to clean my house, I have to  
do it at a 90-degree heat or have the TV on. Things must be turned off. Combined  
with the fact that I'm only allowed to have one AC running and the houses isn’t sealed  
it, it's hot, it's miserable. It's literally unlivable, our food that is in our pantry goes bad  
within a day or two. All our produce and fruit get rotten because it's so hot. Last year  
on October 16th, I believe it is the date by law that the heat has to be able to be  
accessed by the tenants and it has to be on, and they didn't do it. They're the ones  
who sent out the email saying, that by law we must have it on by this date and didn't  
even do it until 2 days later. At that point, you're just breaking the law. We are being  
disrespected at this point and traumatized to be honest with you. I haven't seen a  
single person from Housing Hub except for the maintenance man since we moved.  
Their office has been closed the entire time due to COVID which okay I get it but if  
the doctors’ offices are open and masks are optional don't even use that as an  
excuse anymore. You're not doing your job and you just don't want people to have  
access to that because every time I call, I never get a call back even though they say  
they're going to. Recently, we were trying to renew our lease and a man name Steve  
sent us a link. I said, hey it's not working can you give me a call so we can figure this  
out, didn't call back. I leave a voicemail instead we got a text back. You don't get a  
call back from these people, but you'll get a text. It's like dealing with the high school  
lunchroom. I'm an adult that wants to get this problem solved. I can't do it whenever  
you feel like texting me, answer the phone, and get this problem solved. Still to this  
day we had to mail in a copy of the lease, and they said don't worry about it we got  
this and that it's fine. I have that text right here and then they just sent us another one  
through the portal saying they didn't get it. This is the most recent things, which feels  
like everything we do involving them is 10 steps long. I don't know why they think that  
they should have any sort of increase because of housing services that they're  
providing. They're not providing the ones that by law they should be providing and not  
only is this illegal and they're practices are wrong. I'm traumatized when these people  
walk in the room because what they represent to me and what I've gone through  
living at this address. The response that I get, it's one thing, and if I go through that I  
get things happen and that the world is not a great place, properties get old, things  
happen. If you want to work with me on it, and you want to treat me with some  
respect. I have rights, I have tenant rights, you disregard those, you disregard my  
concerns, and you disregard my safety, and you disregard the things that you say in  
the lease that you're supposed to be keeping up with. At this point, I'm not sure what  
they're doing.  
Moermond: We talked about a list of concerns. Some of them are what I would  
categorize as being behavioral, and some are physical building condition related. I'm  
going to follow-up in particular on the second category there, the physical condition.  
I'm going to go back to the wasp nest and just try to figure out what the location of  
that nest was relative to the truck and the rest of the property. I'm a little bit confused  
about that.  
Waters: I can use this piece of paper just as an example. The front of the house  
would be facing the street, which is here, and our driveway runs along the side of the  
house. We are on the upper unit, and we have a window right here on the side of the  
house right above the driveway. The truck had been pulled in kind of far, so it was  
directly under that window.  
Moermond: Was that wasp nest under truck or was it in the truck?  
Miracle: It was in the window of the house.  
Moermond: It was in the window of the house. A lower unit had a wasp nest, and it  
was being blocked by the truck so it couldn't be dealt with?  
Waters: It was on the outside of the house right above where it splits from the window  
downstairs to where it starts becoming upstairs. It's kind of the top, not exactly the  
window, but what comes out to go over across the window. They had found a little  
hole in there and had gone in there and somehow made it inside the walls and they  
were finding ways to come out into our living rooms, through vents through cracks in  
the window could have been holes from the floor or trim from the floor, and we could  
hear them.  
Miracle: We collected them and pretty much filled up a whole mason jar full of bees.  
Waters: There is a picture somewhere of them. We had to use the spray, and we  
couldn’t do much about it. We had to kill them every day when we got in there and  
they just kept flying in. We had to basically barricade ourselves in our bedroom until  
winter. Then the problem just took care of itself. Mother Nature took care of the  
problem, Housing Hub did not.  
Moermond: You talked about other kinds of infestations that have been problematic in  
addition to the wasp. You want to tell me a little bit more about that, for example, the  
timing, the nature what steps did you take. You know, just a little bit more because  
you kind of went through the list of all the different kinds of infestations that one might  
experience outside. I did not hear bedbugs, but I heard pretty much everything else.  
Tell me a little bit more about what you mean.  
Waters: Absolutely, well we tend to have all sorts of critters especially around the  
back door because it's not sealed to the outside so, anything just crawls in there. But  
the things that we have the biggest problems with are centipedes, and mice which  
are a huge issue. We let them know that we had found rodent droppings towards the  
end of the first year of living there. We have notified them about that and they said  
they'd have pest control come out and deal with it. We brought our cat out for the day  
came back didn’t smell anything or see anything. We clean later that week, and we  
look behind the fridge. They had those little Terro traps for ants, and I am really not  
sure how that's supposed to catch a mouse. That may not necessarily be the  
contractors or Housing Hub’s fault but maybe the communication of what the issue  
was. We still have mice there and they are getting into our food all the time, our  
clothes all the time, and they're just literally everywhere. We've gone up into the attic  
because it got kind of hot, and I think that's where everything is coming in because  
there's just baseball sized holes to the outside. There's about this much of a gap  
between my door outside of my unit and the attic right there, and if you follow the  
stairs down to the front door, same gap to the outside. The whole world can just  
come into our unit none of it is sealed. I know that there are squirrels in the attic.  
They said that they were going to hire some contractor to come and take care of that.  
They said that they will be here on a Friday to do the estimates, but I was there on a  
Friday, and nobody showed up. I tried to contact their office and ask them about it,  
and they said, oh no they are there. They told the Fire Inspector that he was coming,  
so I'd like to see if that's legitimate as well. If it's not, then the animals are going to  
just be continuing to come in. I don't care if I can't use the attic, but I don't want water  
getting in into my ceiling, and I don't want animals getting in. What if my cat gets  
rabies or we get bit or we have an infestation. I mean, mice poop can carry a lot of  
diseases.  
Miracle: Whenever they try taking care of the rodent droppings, they put all these little  
poison traps everywhere. I have a cat and I am afraid that my cat will eat those  
poison traps. I wasn't even aware that that's how they will be getting rid of the mice  
with little poison traps. If I would have known, I probably wouldn’t have called them  
and thought of a different solution because my cat could eat those poisons. They  
have poor solutions for everything when they want to. When we have an issue like  
our shower goes on a slant, and the curtain does not cover it only the square, but the  
whole slant triangle is completely open, and water is just everywhere. There's a lot of  
mold in our bathroom because of that reason. We had a maintenance man named  
Andy who came to help us with that situation. All he did was he just laid the shower  
curtain rod and said that we could rig it somehow into some weird way. I don't  
understand what he was trying to do but he left the project and just left the shower  
curtain rod right there on the floor. We had a few issues with that particular  
maintenance man. He was just a little mean, like kind of stern. My wife was taking a  
shower one day and he supposed to be gone on his break but he was supposed to  
be coming back eventually to fix our door that was unsealed clearly with gaps all  
around it. It's our back door and I told him my wife is showring right now, I know  
you're coming, but can you wait? He was persistent that it was going to be quick and  
pushes my door and starts walking to the kitchen to the door that needs to be fix. The  
shower and the bathroom are right in that kitchen area. I had to just grab some  
clothes out of the dresser and just throw it in there for her. It was just weird and  
awkward.  
Waters: The doors in the house none of them stay shut. That was the other problem,  
the bathroom door wasn't even shutting because it can’t shut. We've had incidences  
where they were supposed to give us a reasonable time of notice before them  
coming in. We had another issue the other day where she was in the shower, it  
seems to always happen lowering shower. They message us saying he's going to  
come by today. We responded with today it will be fine let me know when he's  
coming by because my wife is in the shower. She replied saying he's there outside. I  
was like OK; well, she's going to finish up her shower. I don't know who was in office  
that week, but every single person we talked to has the same attitude. I don't know  
what it is. I told her to give us 5 minutes and she said whatever. My wife said that she  
would hurry up because she just didn’t want to deal with the situation anymore, and  
we wanted to be present because in the past they have damaged our things while  
we're gone. We said if he can come in 5 minutes, and apparently now he's going to  
take his lunch and he's not going to comeback that day. It's like they play these little  
games when they do something right when it's a good time and available for them.  
Well, you didn't give me any notice. I don't know what you want me to do, and not to  
mention they turn the water off when they had the renovations downstairs happening.  
They didn't let us know in the middle of rush hour before school and work. There's no  
communication before the thing, and there is rarely communication after the thing.  
There's only communication if we open that up and it's because there's an issue. I  
would love to never have to call their office about anything ever. Again, that would be  
my dream come true. That just everything goes the way that it's supposed to go. I  
mean, shouldn’t that be expected, right? Other than like certain things happen all you  
know the sinks are not draining or this or that. It shouldn't be like wildlife migrating  
into my house because it's not sealed. There's a bunch of black mold on the ceiling of  
the bathroom. There's all this stuff going on. Even the stairs in the back are about to  
collapse. I am just counting and waiting for the day that I fall through the hazard.  
Miracle: I had a situation with my kidneys, which I was in the hospital for a while. I  
even missed my birthday because I was in the hospital. They finally let me go home,  
and I was home for about 3 days and started feeling really sick again. She called the  
paramedics and they had to come and pick me up. The paramedics are part of the  
Fire Department, and they had no idea how to get me down or up this house. I  
couldn't move, I was in a lot of pain because I've had surgeries and stuff done. They  
had a hard time getting me down the stairs and were trying to move to see what was  
stable enough. They commented how all the stairs were hazardous.  
Waters: Yeah, they were nervous. It’s just been too much. I don't see how they can  
justify an increase, I really don't. I understand with inflation, operating cost, and  
everything else that goes up. It goes up for everybody. We can’t even feed ourselves.  
If you did what you're supposed to do, and you've been doing it the whole time we  
wouldn’t be sitting here. If you did your job, I have respect for that.  
Miracle: When they do their job, they do it in a mean way, like nonprofessional. It’s as  
if they were mad at you that you even called. We were not trusting maintenance to  
come to our house anymore without a notice specifically in our unit because we had  
a situation where a maintenance man said, hey, I'm coming to your house, are you  
going to be there? We're like yeah, we are literally 2 minutes down the road, but yes,  
we'll be there. I'm thinking that he probably won't go into the unit because we said we  
will be there in 2 minutes, but he did. Since we don't put our stuff in the storage area  
in the house because the storage areas are very poor and leak. We take care of our  
stuff, and we have them all in tubs and in stacks. Our living room is almost unusable  
to be lounging in because all our storage is in our living room. He came in and he  
need to see the thermostat. I don't know why he had to move my stuff because he  
could have just gone over them, but he didn’t. He just pulled my tubs out and all of  
my stuff fell on the floor. My guitar was all broken and had chips all over it. My bow  
and arrow that my dad gave me for my birthday was on the floor. I had a collection of  
colorful clear jars, and they were on the floor, too. I couldn't believe that it looked like  
we got robbed that day. That cuts why we just don't want them coming to our house  
anymore without us being present. Every time they do have a maintenance thing, it's  
like we're going to come anyway, even if you're not there. We're just trying to get  
there as fast as we can back home. I could have just been out and working on a  
grocery order, but I had to leave that order. This place makes it almost impossible for  
me to even work a regular job. I don't want to be working this grocery job anymore.  
I'm not making much income because of COVID. It's not a service anymore that  
people need because they can go to grocery stores.  
Moermond: I'm going to bring us back for a minute. You had mentioned the black  
mold and explained this is in the bathroom and it’s because a ventilation issue for  
you, and you mentioned splinters. Can you elaborate a little bit about where those  
splinters are coming from and just what's going on with that?  
Waters: Sure. The floors in the unit are very uneven, and they are kind of starting to  
cave in, especially in the living room area. I don't know what kind of trim they have  
but it seems like they have metal trim on wood flooring, so that's probably one of the  
issues there. It's caving in and a spot right by the trim where there is a step off on to  
the tile floor down there. It started to cave in which has made the wood split all the  
way down and along those panels. It's the only walkway in the house, and it’s the  
only place to walk, you can’t avoid walking on it and because there's that step down.  
It's gaining weight up and it decided to be the place to cave, and all the wood  
connected is kind of parallel a split a long that wood. We have our shower on and you  
can feel the moist in the whole house for hours afterwards, it's like a rainforest. I'm  
assuming, that some of that moisture lifted that wood and because of that there are  
splinters. The floors are waiting to fall through.  
Miracle: You can see that the woods are not even level with that metal trim that they  
laid in front of it. The wood is completely going under it. It's very uneven and that  
walkway is the living room just area. It's kind of confusing, but it is a living room as  
well. You can’t even shuffle your feet, run or anything because you will automatically  
get a splinter. Even chunks of the wood floor come off, and then they're just laying all  
over the place and just making my floor dirty. There is wood everywhere to the point  
where I feel like I am at Menards.  
Moermond: The air conditioner unit, I take it we're looking at a window air conditioner.  
Is that provided by them?  
Waters: No.  
Moermond: That's your own?  
Waters: Yes.  
Moermond: I have a lot of notes. Is there something we didn't talk about? Otherwise,  
I'm going to offer staff, an opportunity to ask questions. After that, I’ll turn it over to  
ownership, representation.  
Ferkinhoff: I don't have questions.  
Moermond: Mr. Sass?  
Sass: I do not.  
Moermond: All right, are there any other things you want to say before we switch  
gears for a few minutes?  
Waters: I just want to touch base again on the circuit of the house. We did have the  
maintenance come out and said basically, it’s an old house and there is basically not  
much they can do about it and not to have stuff on at the same time. But if you look at  
the fuse in the bottom, you can see that one is for this room and one is for the other,  
and then they have an entire side of the house wired to another fuse. We're always  
having to go down there. Sometimes we have the regular things plugged in that  
we've learned to keep plugged in and will just be sitting there trying to just enjoy a  
meal and the lights go off, and down to the basement again we go. It’s to the point  
now where the circuit is bad that we go to flip a light switch and the light doesn’t come  
on. We have to sit there and wrench with the light switch just to get the lights on in  
our kitchen or bathroom, and in the fridge room, kind of the room that the fridge in the  
pantry is located in by the back door.  
Moermond: Thank you for your comments. Mr. Collins, I see you and you have a  
gentleman with you who's name I might have heard before, but I cannot remember.  
Herding: Ben Herding  
Moermond: You heard a lot there and I was kind dividing some of the behavioral  
kinds of things from the physical conditions. What comments do you have based on  
what you're hearing?  
Collins: There's a lot to unpack there. You can see why being a landlord may be  
tough. Just on the behavioral stuff this was during COVID there were no evictions. It  
was a handicap TSA dog that had years of service time.  
Moermond: Was it a service dog?  
Collins: Yeah. You won’t win in court with that one. We worked with her, and her  
medical helper, and medical worker.  
Herding: I mean, her roommate, also passed away.  
Moermond: Okay, so the person downstairs with her dog had a roommate that  
passed away, just so we are in the same page.  
Collins: Yes. I mean, we heard all their concerns. Two people living in the same  
space can be challenging. I tell people at all times that trying to get neighbors to like  
each other who aren't even living in the unit, other properties on the block, city, state,  
whenever it's hard to balance and make everybody happy. But as soon as we could,  
we did move her along. It just goes to show that we don't want to throw people on the  
street. This is a handicapped woman. She may have had some mental issues, but  
we're not just going to throw people on the street. We're going to work with them and  
try to move them as dignified as we can. I think we did that. She did have a balance  
of $7,000 when she left, and we would love to recoup that. But it's kind of one of  
those things that it's a community thing. I mean, we're going to work with the  
community and we're going to try to do the best we can for all. Sometimes you can't  
make everybody happy. Some of the statements that we never came out, that's false.  
We have records of that we always came out a lot of times and we came out and  
they sent us away. We would say we're coming on Tuesday, and they would reply we  
can't do that. Pest control was pushed away, and we can't just tow cars because then  
I'm getting sued and I will be paying to get it out of the impound lot. We have to be  
careful when we're towing, and why we are towing. I think we did the right thing there.  
We finally got it moved and we worked with both tenants to get that done and defuse  
that situation.  
Moermond: Can I circle back on the vehicle. Did the vehicle belong to anybody  
associated with the building?  
Collins: She was a helper of the handicapped woman.  
Moermond: That person just left their vehicle there?  
Collins: I think she was just parking there. I don't think she just left it there, I think  
she's moving in and out and they didn't like that it was there. It shouldn’t be there  
since it wasn't registered to her. To tow someone’s vehicle that's helping a  
handicapped woman it’s pretty much not something I want to do, we've got to be  
careful. Fire and Safety was just out, and we passed in 2020 with a B that's a pretty  
good grade for a duplex. They did call Fire and Safety again once the lease renewal  
came out. I don't know if that was just a tiny issue, but all of a sudden Fire and Safety  
comes out which that’s fine, we welcome them, we want to make sure our tenants are  
safe. They wrote us up on some issues in the attic and none of the other issues were  
addressed in the write up that we heard.  
Moermond: I am going to circle back on that in just a second. I heard from staff that  
this is a triplex, not a duplex.  
Herding: It is a duplex. I think that they would give a couple properties on Conway  
that the addresses make it seem odd the way it's laid out, but this building is a  
duplex.  
Moermond: Okay, the Fire and Safety Inspection document attached to the record is  
for a complaint-based inspection. Inspectors would investigate that complaint, but not  
conduct the full Certificate of Inspection of Occupancy of the building. Your inspector  
previously gave the property a B grade.  
Collins: One of the reasons it's not completed yet is because Fire and Safety comes  
out and they catch other things that weren't in the complaint. The chimney is written  
up and will cost $4,500. What other issues, pest control, it's pretty much stated  
clearly in the pet addendum how we treat mice. We can put sticky traps out, but we  
will be running around all day just retrieving sticky traps. Once a mouse goes in a  
sticky trap a tenant calls us to come and get the sticky trap because there is a mouse  
on it. Best way to get rid of mice is poison and kill all the critters. That's what our  
outside vendors do, and it's clearly stated in the pet addendum.  
Moermond: Can you just refresh my memory, is sending out pest control something  
that you have on a schedule or is that done on a tenant complaint basis?  
Collins: Good question, anything 3-units and above we do on a schedule. We have  
day traps outside anything smaller than that it's if we get in the complaint and we go  
out and treat. Most properties that have pets, whether it's cats or not, weather they  
are good mice catchers or not, with food source on the floor you will see mice.  
Moermond: Other comments based on what you heard?  
Collins: Yeah, one about the documentation. It may seem like there's a concern  
about avoidance of phone calls. But for both parties, something I stress to our staff is  
to get documentation through text message or emails so that there's not a “he said,  
she said” back and forth. Really, that is to just document that process for our records  
for them and for us to show where we can come back and see what really transpired,  
instead of saying, well they said this on the phone and now they're saying this. A lot  
of that reason isn't any sort of avoidance, more really of a protocol with our office and  
to make sure everything is properly documented.  
Moermond: Okay, so if somebody is reaching out to your office, they could get  
someone on the phone at least during regular business hours?  
Herding: Absolutely, and even after hours if you call our number it goes to our  
after-hours on-call service to be able to put in maintenance requests which are  
dispatched to our on-call maintenance staff. Joe or I are monitoring those calls, and  
we even have a handful of people that are monitoring even after call weekend  
service, too.  
Collins: It's something that's necessary. We have over 5 thousand tenants, so we  
document everything. A lot of that they said we hear in bits and pieces but there is  
documentation and always follow up on what we're doing. I was confused hearing  
that we never showed up, when we showed up a lot.  
Moermond: Lets focus on the times where there was maybe a little bit of  
communication difficulty between the maintenance person showing up unexpectedly  
on a couple of occasions, says the tenants, and the notice issue. What's going on  
with that?  
Collins: Yeah, I think we have one in there.  
Herding: It was a few instances of text messages that unit two is refusing service  
today, so will reschedule some time. This was for our pest control vendor, so we had  
to let them know that unit two was refusing service and will contact them to  
reschedule. We also needed to cancel maintenance because of what she was  
claiming on the tenant about a tire popping. Looking back to see when the tenant  
roommate in unit one passed away, and that the tenant in the other unit was in a  
wheelchair, that would be a lot of effort on their part.  
Moermond: But you said that the vehicle, the truck, belonged what sounds like, her  
service worker.  
Collins: We gave notice, and we also do tell tenants every month that submitting a  
maintenance request is allowing us entry because of the nature of that. They are  
giving us that permission to go in if it's granted to or text to reach out.  
Moermond: What are the parameters around that?  
Collins: I'm sorry, what do you mean?  
Moermond: You're saying making that request is granting approval to enter the unit.  
What are the parameters around entering that unit? It certainly isn't that you can  
come by whenever you want. Tell me what the rules are that your business uses.  
Collins: You get an automatic response saying, hey we received your work order  
someone will be dispatch shortly. If you have a water issue, fire, or flood if it's  
immediate. It is coming same day. But anything that's regularly dispatched, the  
worker picks up the phone leaving their last job, and tells the tenant, they are 30  
minutes away. There is a time window, and we usually are running at next day  
service. We give tenants at least 30 minutes to an hour.  
Moermond: What happens if on a Tuesday evening I notice that the sink is leaking,  
and I text you letting you know. How do you balance the 24-hour notice vs. the most  
efficient response. It must be that if you have a tech available at 8am the next day  
somebody at the residence could be getting ready to run out to work.  
Collins: There's an online person that pings on a call. We also have a backup  
dispatcher that works from home. She covers from 5 o'clock till midnight, and she  
watches anything that comes through and then it will be flagged. If it's something  
that's an emergency, she'll contact the tenant. Is this something that can be  
controlled? If you can't, we're going to send somebody out tonight. Is that fine or can  
it be controlled? Yes, it can, okay, somebody will be there tomorrow at 8 in the  
morning. That's how we can track that down.  
Herding: It's very normal business hours for a maintenance technician because that's  
when they work, except, for our on-call maintenance technician who's answering the  
phone. It's costly to the owner to send out maintenance after hours, so we do reach  
out just to make sure that it is warranted. If it is between those hours, I would even  
say probably closer to 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. are those normal business hours. We have  
tenants who submit work orders but then say they refuse entry, and that kind of  
contradicts a request for help so we seek for clarity on that, unless it's a common  
area where the outside of the building. It's hard for our technicians to give exact time.  
We try not to set those expectations or allow appointments because of the amount of  
work that is being juggled, but they do try to reach out when they're on their way.  
Collins: They can deny entry, and we have that a lot where today is not going to work  
can you guys come tomorrow afternoon? That is in the technician’s radar, and they  
know it. When you start giving those times like we're going to be there between 9 or  
11, and you don't show up and no one stays at home. It's a nightmare.  
Moermond: I heard the bathtub wasn't allowed to be used, what do you have in your  
records on that?  
Collins: Did you see anything in there? And I did not.  
Herding: I mean, there's a work order. This is a recent one from February that there's  
no water in the toilet and the shower. It could have been something that it wasn't able  
to be used while it was being fixed. But that's all I see about the toilet and shower.  
Moermond: Any other comment?  
Collins: Well, just for clarification, the tenant down below, the last time she was in  
there, I believe it was March of 2022, and she might have been gone by that time.  
This was about a year.  
Herding: That unit was vacant up until very recently. The tenant was evicted and had  
been gone for well over a year.  
Collins: They did sign the lease after that incident.  
Moermond: Would you be willing to provide the documentation on the pest control  
services for this particular property?  
Collins: Yeah, we could submit that.  
Moermond: What do you do when you have situations like this dog? Certainly, it isn’t  
the first problematic dog you've encountered. I heard it was unleashed and poop in  
the yard wasn’t picked up. It seems like that's a big issue. I know that it's ultimately  
the tenant’s responsibility to manage, if they're allowed to have a pet but the  
addendum does have some expectations about pets are managed. It sounds like this  
situation is inconsistent with what that addendum describes. When there's a problem  
do you provide tie outs for the dog? For example, I let the dog out to use the facilities  
that are the outside, but you hear the problem, how do you handle that? Because it is  
a tenant issues and it's also a management issue. Tell me more about what your  
practice is for this.  
Collins: Believe it or not, we don't see it a ton of these. But in this case, we did need  
that a police report. I mean, it's always good to have a police report, especially in the  
COVID days. If you wanted to evict you had to show that the tenant was dangerous  
or a friend, family member or pet was dangerous to others. That was an important  
part of getting an eviction. Those were very costly, which is something we would  
have done but without that police report we don’t have anything to go to court with. It  
can become a “he said, she said.” We need to be pretty bulletproof, if we're going to  
evict somebody from their home over a behavioral issue. We need documentation,  
fines levied, before just asking to remove your pet or just threatening eviction.  
Sometimes that is good enough but in this situation trying to move remove a tenant  
that is handicap with a service dog we thought the best route would be a police  
report.  
Moermond: So, did you initiate any kind of investigation as the property owner without  
the police report?  
Collins: Yes, but we never saw the dog running just wild. We have probably 15- 20  
tenants on that block and no one else was complaining about a dog loose running  
around. I think a lot of the problem was between the 2 tenants and how that kind  
ended up playing out.  
Moermond: I’m a dog owner with a fenced yard. My yard wasn’t fence when I moved  
in and I had to use tie outs until it was. I would have to say that without putting a point  
on where the dog poops it gives you an idea of where the dog gets to go. If it's  
wintertime and I'm wondering, would you look for something like that? You know if the  
dogs being reported as being kind at large.  
Collins: I think she did have somebody come over and help out. Of course, when the  
snow melts, we see the pile. We have pet owners who are not responsible and that's  
addressed through a fine or the threat of eviction. It was just a unique situation over  
there. We have text messages that say if you don't take care of this dog, I'm going to  
shoot it and I'm going to shoot her. When you get those text messages, there's not a  
lot of cordial conversation you can have with the tenant.  
Herding: A note from Lynn calling in that they are making threats that they will shoot  
the dog. It's a note from our customer tenant coordinator talking to the lower unit.  
Moermond: She said, she said rule would apply to that as well.  
Collins: Exactly.  
Moermond: And your investigation would be? Did you talk to the lower unit tenant  
about their dog?  
Herding: Yeah, so there's a lot of requests to talk to the tenant. I need to ask why the  
dog is not on a leash, why is the dog poop not been cleaned up. We have been  
talking to Lynn about the lease violations for those pets. Part of that pet addendum  
has been documented on here, too. Again, you've got to remember that November of  
2021 our hands were tied in our abilities to make certain moves above just that  
constant requesting and checking up on and working with that tenant. But I do see  
documentation requested and a follow-up.  
Moermond: Last question for you all, one of the things that is listed as a reason for  
you seeking an increase above the exception to the 3% cap is an increase to the  
housing services. What would that be?  
Collins: Did we even include that?  
Herding: It was one of the checked boxes. Usually, that is maintenance and upkeep  
and even management fees.  
Moermond: Isn’t that something that's included in operating expenses and not in  
housing services? I’m looking to staff here.  
Sass: Housing services are services provided by the landlord. Let's say that under  
the previous ownership, there was not landscaping offered but with this new  
ownership there is landscaping offered. That could be increased housing services.  
Moermond: Thinking about it that way, a new service that is being provided not an  
increase in costs that would be captured in the maintenance and operating.  
Herding: Yes, there’s a line here for landscaping, and it looks like 2019 there is not.  
They did about $2,000 in work in 2022, specifically in landscaping.  
Moermond: A part of it is the $2,000 increase in landscaping, where are you getting  
that number from?  
Herding: It’s from the accounting from the owner from that general ledger. The profit  
and loss statement that was reviewed and filled out for the operating expenses  
before coming here.  
Moermond: What kind of a new service would it be on top of what’s already  
accounted for an increase in expenses. Because there's also an increase for a  
particular unit that would be taken into account as capital expenses that are  
amortized. There's a place for to be documented within the forms. I'm not familiar with  
the place in the forms were like specific housing services would be asked for and  
written out. Is that something that's asked, like if you have an increase in housing  
services, is that a specific question?  
Sass: There is a spot to define what type of services are offered by the landlord in the  
MNOI, the copy with the full financial information doesn't include that page. It is not  
one of the earlier ones which I can find in the forms.  
Moermond: So, you may have that information?  
Sass: I give me a second to look  
.
Moermond: That was pretty much what I was wanting to ask you more about. Do you  
have comments about the splinters?  
Collins: Do you have any? I don't have any.  
Herding: I have to look back and see the worker order information, but I have not  
gotten through every work order in front of me.  
Moermond: How do you handle if that were to come forward as a complaint? Let’s  
say you get a text saying that this location in the property, the wood floors are  
splintering and it’s problematic.  
Collins: We send out a tech and take pictures. Is it an easy fix? Is it something that  
we would have to cut the wood floor and replaced the boards that are splintering.  
We've done that and we will do that, but nothing rings a bell of getting any of that. My  
question goes back to when they had Safety and Inspection out, which I like that  
because they can write it all up, tell me what I have to do, and tell me if you think it's  
an issue. The last time Safety and Inspection came out, all of their attention was on  
that attic.  
Harding: I guess it’s all costs related unless you're talking about additional services  
and those have not changed. But obviously those costs continue to go along with  
everything else under operating expenses. Even this property too for the current year  
operating at a deficit for the year 2022. It obviously plays a factor into the request for  
operating costs.  
Moermond: Due to vacancy?  
Herding: We talked about that earlier. The vacancy and eviction that took place and  
repairs related to that unit, meaning that unit and now the attic. It will be at lease a  
$5,000 hit.  
Moermond: All right.  
Collins: I will make an offer. It seems like this place is falling apart and is in great  
disrepair, so I would offer a no notice if they want to vacate. I won’t hold them for the  
60-day notice.  
Waters: How much time would we have to get our stuff out.  
Collins: As long as you want. If you need another month that’s okay by me.  
Moermond: July 30th you mean.  
Collins: If you need the end of July that's fine, or if you need the end of this month  
that's fine. Whatever. I don't want you living in something that you guys don't want to  
live in.  
Moermond: I had some landlords say 0% increase. I hear your story, I am going to  
work with you, and we will work on the just cause vacancy later. I've heard other  
kinds of arrangements and what I say to this whole conversation is that's between  
you guys, and however, you manage your business among you all that's a private  
contract between you all. It won't affect how I treat this particular situation and  
whether or not the unit is vacated I'm going to move forward with writing up a  
recommendation for the council on this appeal, so unless the appeal is withdrawn or  
unless you withdraw your request for an exception to the rent cap. In which case my  
letter to the council will be relatively short. All right, are you amending your  
application to remove a portion of it that says you're increasing costs related to an  
increase in housing services? Or is that something that just happened here?  
Herding: It can if that makes sense. If it was an unclear definition of what we thought  
housing services was to that scope.  
Moermond: Well, I'm not going to say that it is it, that's your call. I'm just asking as it  
seemed to be coming up in conversation. You can keep it in the application, or we  
could verbally amend it right now. It doesn't matter to me. I just wanted to kind of say  
that.  
Herding: It is not going to move the needle any more then beyond 2. If it works to  
keep it simple then you can definitely take that off.  
Moermond: All right, thank you. I will ask for any last comments from the tenants, and  
we can wrap up our meeting. All right, Ms. Miracle, Ms. Waters, you get the  
opportunity to have the last word. What would you like to say?  
Waters: It's not that we refuse them coming in, it's the fact that we put out these  
maintenance requests and they came, and they did some stuff but not all. Some of  
them were canceled out by them, and I know there's no way to have any proof of  
that, however, we did make phone calls. When you're just hoping that everyone does  
their job, and you're not thinking the whole time I should be documenting everything  
that I'm doing, so that if something does go wrong. We're lucky that we did have  
some of the pictures and some of the things that we did have. However, as far as the  
dog that was downstairs, emotional support animal, I'm pretty sure nowadays you  
can just go online and you can buy a certificate for a certain amount of money and  
call anything emotional service animal, and that dog was a close to 100-pound pit  
bull. I have a video on my phone right now of a gentleman, doesn't live in my house,  
running down the street away from this dog, as he's biting his ankles and then  
coming back with his truck, and shooting snow, all in the front of the house because  
he got attacked. Either way, there’s 15 other people that live in that live in that block  
that are tenants with Housing Hub. How are they going to know that the tenant in the  
bottom of our unit is with Housing Hub, and that they could call Housing Hub for that  
dog? That statement did not make no sense to me, like here is a bunch of other  
people from Housing Hub living on this block. Why haven't they called to report this  
dog? How would they know that that dog belongs to a tenant of yours? I know there's  
houses on the block, and I couldn't begin to tell you which ones belong to Housing  
Hub, so how would they. Some of these justifications that I signed a lease after this?  
Yes, I signed the lease because unfortunately, I have an eviction on my record  
because my uncle became the inheritor of my grandparent’s estate, and I was living  
in their home. He ended up evicting me from that property so that he could gain the  
monetary value from that property quicker. That’s why I have an eviction on my  
record, not because I was a bad tenant but because from family. The reason that we  
have to continue to sign this lease is because we appreciated in the beginning how  
Housing Hub gave me this opportunity even though I have a criminal record, and an  
eviction on my record. But they allowed me the opportunity to tell them what  
happened in the beginning, and they listen with open ears and said, hey you know  
what things happen and we're willing to give people a chance. I do agree with the  
statement he made as far as like they try to work with people because I experienced  
that too in the very beginning, which is why this whole other part process is so  
shocking. I understand that when you're in charge of running a company it's hard to  
manage every single employee. I understand some behavioral things may just be  
how some people act, I understand that. Either way at the end of the day, I'm not  
signing that lease again because it's a beautiful property. I am kind of stuck to be  
honest with you, and not to mention about the loss of wages because when you are  
trying to go out and that dog is there, and it's not being leash it’s hard to go. I did call  
the police and it's on the police that they didn't make their report. It seems to me what  
happens a lot is I've been raised to be told, okay if an emergency happens to you call  
the police, or you call the person in charge and you tell them what's going on, and  
they will help you in doing the next right thing. I've yet to experience that in the City of  
Saint Paul, and that's very unfortunate.  
Moermond: Question, did the eviction on your record did that happen in Ramsey  
County?  
Waters: No, it did not.  
Moermond: Did that happen in Minnesota?  
Waters: Yes, it did.  
Moermond: Do you think that your income-qualified to work with legal aid?  
Waters: Possibly? I'm under Supplemental Security Income at the moment and I  
don't have a job.  
Moermond: The reason I bring this up is because they do work with people to have  
evictions expunged from the record. That is something now that courts will consider  
your circumstances. You're talking about family and other kinds of things going on  
there, you're not talking about a traditional landlord-tenant kind of relationship. I put  
that to you as something that's available. I always tell people this and I will give you  
the brochure for the House Calls program. I'm hearing you talk about income and the  
ability to support yourselves and a lot of things impacting on that in different ways. I  
just want to make sure you're aware of SNAP and that you're aware of Health  
Insurance options that would be available to you. Is that something that you're on top  
of and have good information on?  
Waters: Yes, I currently receive a $69 a month from SNAP. That's all that they'll do.  
Moermond: Are you aware of food shelf kind of things as well? How about your health  
insurance, do you have health insurance? I will give you this information anyway, but  
I will suggest reaching out and talking about your background that is impacting your  
ability to find rental housing. Get on that now, so that you're able to approach your  
next situation possibly without any of that out there. That's something that I want you  
to take away from this. All right, anything else?  
Miracle: I have one more thing, the tenant who lived downstairs before, maybe the  
lady that was taken care of her was a support person. But I do know that when we  
were starting to live there, we started seeing a lot of traffic come in our house. Very  
sketchy music, very sketchy trucks, very sketchy environment. I can even hear the  
dog barking like crazy because he is wound up. She might have been disabled, but I  
don't think it was like that kind of way. I think she was involved with some bad stuff,  
as well as that lady that was taking care of her. The truck was not taken that day from  
that lady that was taking care of her, it was taken by this weird group of people.  
That's not our first time like I saw them take the truck I remember them because one  
night they went up to our unit and they were banging on our door really late in the  
middle of the night asking if we could move our car because they're scared because  
the police are coming after them. They want the us to get out of bed to literally move  
our car so they can hide that. The following day I had to go to work, and the truck  
wound up being in our driveway. That group of people did not live there, and they  
almost acted like they owned the house. We had no space or privacy because  
random drug addict people would come to our unit door and knock on our door and  
ask us to do things. We didn’t want to get involved with these people. When I did see  
them ta  
Rent Stabilization Appeals  
Appeal of Bailey Miracle and Rachel Waters to a Rent Stabilization  
Determination at 696 CONWAY STREET, Unit 2.  
RLH RSA 23-10  
Sponsors:  
Prince  
Attachments:  
696 Conway Apt.2 Appeal 5-26-23 (1)  
Landlord notification to Tenant 5-10-23  
Appeal Notification to the Landlord- 6-2-23  
696 Conway St. #2 lease renewal 2023  
696 Conway St MNOI  
Additional Information  
696 Conway St Fire Insp Notes & Orders  
696 Conway lease renewal 2022  
696 Conway St Fire Insp Notes Orders & Photos 2023  
Owner Pest Control receipt  
Staff Report - 696 Conway Street -- 06-26-23  
Re_ 696 Conway - Rachel Waters and Bailey Miracle- Joe Collins  
Email 10-4-23  
Bailey Miracle and Rachel Waters, Appellants and Tenants  
Joe Collins and Ben Herding, Landlords  
Lynne Ferkinhoff and Demetrius Sass, DSI Staff  
Moermond: It's my job to hear your appeal on behalf of the City Council. What I need  
to do is develop a recommendation for their consideration. I'm giving them a  
recommendation. If you and the owner are okay with what that recommendation, or  
don't object, the Council will adopt the resolution without discussion. If for any reason  
you are not okay with what I'm recommending to the City Council, this goes forward  
on a “public hearing consent agenda.” The Council Member will talk about it and you  
will be given an opportunity to speak, as well as other interested parties. What I like  
to do in this process is to start out with the staff report and have staff describe their  
reasoning in reviewing the application and making their determination. In this  
particular case, we have a self-certification application, which means that it can be  
filed online and that the owner is to retain supporting documents and if they're  
requested they need to be brought forward. As soon as you file an appeal, I request  
those documents be submitted to my office and we share them with the Department  
of Safety and Inspection (DSI) staff. So, the application for a 3% to 8% exception to  
the rent control cap receives the same kind of review that would be given to an  
application for a higher rent increase. I believe that these documents have also been  
made available to you both. What I will be asking of you, as appellants, is what why  
are you appealing and what are you looking for in the appeals process? You provided  
a nice amount of information, good background on what you're looking for and why. I  
will hear then from the property ownership representation. However, anybody who's  
interested in the case and wants to speak will be heard before we wrap up. For most  
of the cases I do, I don't arrive at a conclusion as we're sitting here, I go away with  
the information that I've heard and the documents have been presented. I look at it all  
and develop a letter that I would sent to you all and copying the owners with what my  
recommendation. When you get that, it will have a public hearing date. Sonia  
Romero, will confer with people to make sure that the public hearing date is  
something that would work for everyone. A final determination on the application has  
not been yet made and as soon as you file an appeal, the rent increase is stayed,  
frozen. Once The Council votes the stay goes away and then things move forward.  
We have Lynn Ferkinhoff and Demetrius Sass from the Department of Safety and  
Inspections. They are the staff who work in rent stabilization there. I'll ask them to get  
us started and then we'll talk with you.  
Ferkinhoff: On April 19, 2023, the Department of Safety & Inspections (DSI) received  
a self-certified application for an exception to the 3% rent increase cap per Ordinance  
193A for 696 Conway Street. Megan Peterson, an employee of Housing Hub,  
submitted the application on behalf of Fair Housing LLC, which is listed as the owner  
of the property. The intake form is part of the record. The application notes that the  
requested increase: 1) will comprise the entire building; 2) will not be consistent  
across all units; and 3) will take effect on July 1, 2023. DSI staff understands that  
there are three units in the building. Unit 1 was noted as “vacant” at the time of  
application, with a possible “move in” during May 2023. The reasons for the rent  
increase listed in the application include: 1) an increase in housing services; 2) an  
increase in real property taxes; and 3) an unavoidable increase in operating  
expenses. Per the self-certification process, the application was automatically  
approved. On May 12, 2023, an approval letter was sent to Ms. Peterson. Letters  
were mailed to the tenants on May 10, 2023 (Unit 2) and May 12, 2023 (Unit 1 and  
Unit 3). For self-certification, applicants are required to provide several pieces of  
information from the worksheet used to calculate Maintenance of Net Operating  
Income or “MNOI.” The information includes: 1) current year gross scheduled Rental  
income; 2) fair net operating income; 3) missed fair revenue; and 4) allowable rent  
increase (missed fair revenue /current year gross scheduled rental income). Staff  
verified that current year gross scheduled rental income and allowable rent increase  
were incorrect in the application as submitted. Staff worked with the applicant to try to  
correct the information. The following are updates to the data provided from the  
original application: current year gross scheduled rental income  
$23,352.00; fair net operating income from $13,807 to $15,749; missed fair revenue  
from $14,996 to $5,815; and allowable rent increase from $416.56 to 24.91%.  
from $11,724 to  
Note that the actual allowed rent increase in the self-certification process may be  
between 3% to 8%. This is a Class B property with one complaint to date in 2023.  
The complaint is currently under review.  
Moermond: Just to reiterate, looking at the math on the reasons why it could be  
increased under Chapter 193A, it shows up as having an allowable increase of up to  
24.91%. The application was self-certified and therefore capped at 8%.  
Moermond: The increase in housing services, do we have any sort of a statement  
about what that would be?  
Ferkinhoff: No, I don't believe that we received that.  
Moermond: The operating expenses in the property taxes would have had a  
confirmation from you folks though. One last question, in the section of the code that  
talks about reasonable return on investment, it says the city shall establish a process  
by which landlords can request exemptions to the limitation on rent increases based  
on the right of reasonable return on investment. It appears to me that some of the  
factors listed would be justifications for a decrease to the level of exception to the  
cap. For example, housing conditions wouldn't have been evaluated as part of what  
you are looking at. I'm seeing this is considered a Class B property by Fire  
Inspections, and there is an open order without further review from Rent Stabilization  
staff.  
Waters: This number right here, the allowable rent increase, is it reflective of what  
would it actually be? Because you said it could be capped at 8% or possibly less than  
8 % percent of the rent.  
Moermond: Correct, the application asked for an increase between 3 and 8%. It didn't  
ask for anything higher than that. They ran the math to see if it checked out, 8%  
checks out. The 24.91% isn't the number we're going to concern ourselves with,  
except that it's that many percentage points higher than 8%. There are 9 individual  
points listed that can be evaluated and we talked about the ones they are using to  
justify the increase. Your appeal seems to be about things that would justify a  
decrease, and that decrease could be a decrease from the 8%. So, we need to have  
a conversation about what you've been experiencing. I need to figure out how I need  
to analyze that in the context of the appeal and their application. You provided a lot of  
background information, and before I go there did you have questions right now? You  
had the 24.91% question. Did you have anything else jumped out at you?  
Waters: I guess just the application for the rent increase that was granted based of  
their evidence, but our evidence wasn't considered before that, so this is now where  
our evidence is considered?  
Moermond: Correct, I need to respond back that they submitted information, and the  
process is almost automatic when the requested increase is between 3 and 8%. The  
online application to apply for a 3% to 8% rent increase receives minimal staff review.  
The real staff review happens once you file the appeal, we get all the paperwork in,  
and staff do a full analysis. There are post cards that go out, and the first one, it's  
simply a heads up an application has been made. The second one is a heads up that  
a determination has been made and says that if you disagree with that determination.  
I have a proposed lease and an old lease, so we can compare them.  
Waters: Starting from the beginning. This is our first rental unit, and we were  
expecting a little bit different. From the beginning things haven't been as we're told,  
and as it has been written down in our lease. We're told that community/share areas  
were going to be maintained by their maintenance team, and that snow removal more  
than 2 inches will be taken care of by their maintenance. There are are also specific  
terms of the lease that cover when other tenants knowingly put us in actual danger.  
There was very limited response until we kind of got a little bit more aggressive. I  
don't want to have to deal with lawyers. I just want to be safe at the one place I am  
supposed to feel safe. There was a dog that was downstairs and it attacked her  
[Bailey Miracle] nipping the back of her leg.  
Moermond: What did you do in that circumstance. Did you make any calls or  
complaints?  
Miracle: We have called the police a few times because that's not the only kind of bad  
thing the dog did. The owner of the dog was a lady in a wheelchair, and this dog is  
very aggressive. He is cooped up in that unit and whenever they would let him out,  
he would just attack anybody down the street. He would run-up at our car and scratch  
our car window. We couldn't get out of our own car; and would be stuck in our car  
until the lady would bring her dog back in. It's been snowy and they didn't keep up  
with all snow removal. We've had to run away from the dog in the snow. It got icy, to  
the point where we have hurt ourselves. The cops said that they can't do anything  
about it because the landlord wasn't there, and that he had to be present. We called  
the cops twice because then it started getting really bad. The people downstairs  
knew we didn't like their dog and we started having issues with them. They were kind  
of nasty people. They finally left, and we complained a lot to the Housing Hub people  
about the nasty things that they would do to us and how they would retaliate by  
sending their dog on us and they wouldn’t call him back. The lady was kind of evil.  
Moermond: Do you have this person's name?  
Waters: We only remember her first time. I think her name was Gwyn.  
Moermond: Did you make a police report?  
Waters: We called they didn't seem to do anything. It was a woman officer and a  
male officer that showed up and basically said, I don't really know what you want me  
to do. There's no blood, it was bruised, so there's not really anything we can do about  
it. You can complain to your landlord.  
Moermond: The reason I'm coming back on that is because I don't think that was  
good. I personally think the right response is to say, let's get Animal Control involved.  
If a dog has bitten somebody, that needs to be investigated. I'm kind of disappointed  
in the lack of more information but I just wanted to say to you that there is a process  
for dealing with that. This is not necessarily a situation where the landlord needs to  
make that call. So, this is happening with the dog downstairs it was some kind of a  
service dog for a woman in the wheelchair?  
Waters: We should not have to deal with this because Housing Hub recognizes that  
certain breeds of dogs shouldn’t be in their properties due to the aggressive nature.  
In the lease it stated that type of dog specifically should not even be on the property.  
We brought that to their attention and our response was that the dog had been  
grandfathered in from a previous tenant. But it’s still a lease violation and so is all the  
poop in the lawn and not being on a leash. It got to the point where it felt like we were  
banging our head against the wall because, who do you call? We call the office, and  
we have a recording of them saying we have numerous letters actually in the past  
about this dog. I don't know why they weren’t followed up on. They have the  
knowledge; they have letters and complains about the dog before and the dog was  
still there, and we got attacked by it and traumatized. That's just within the first 3  
months we moved in.  
Moermond: When did you move in?  
Waters: It was I believe it was on July 1st of 2021 would have been our initial move in  
date.  
Moermond: Did that tenant live there at the time you moved in?  
Waters: Yes.  
Moermond: That's a long-term of thing you're struggling with.  
Waters: Yes. We have been given notice about the dog and I don't believe the  
tenants downstairs had left. It was probably about 7 months or more than that. I  
understand eviction is a process and it takes a long time but if the violations were  
there before, and there was that many of them, I don't think we should have been put  
in that predicament in the first place. Secondly, there was a vehicle that was parked  
in a driveway when we first moved in. We had asked the tenants initially is this your  
vehicle. How are we going to work out the parking situation? They said, oh no it's not  
their vehicle they don't know whose it is. We ended up calling Housing Hub to see if  
they could have it towed, and they said that we need to call the police. Anyway, we  
had to call the police for it, and they ran the license plate on the car, and found out  
that it's a car that had been recently doing some type of criminal activity. I don't want  
that there, you know? All during this time there is a wasp infestation in the window  
that's above that truck and they're coming in. They stung me, her [Bailey Miracle],  
and they also stung my cat numerous times. We had to live with those wasps for  
those 3 weeks, and that truck was still there because we kept putting in requests  
about it. We kept saying, can you please kill this wasp nest, or can you seal the  
windows because they keep getting in. They had known from moving date that the  
windows were not sealed, and they said they were not going to do anything about  
that but that's a different point. These wasps are still getting in and they're sending a  
maintenance guy out and getting frustrated that he can't do anything about it because  
the truck still there. He's frustrated that he can't do anything about it. We are still  
having to deal with the wasps for this entire 3 weeks. I understand you're supposed  
to get a certain my notice to get a vehicle towed, but I'm pretty sure it's not 3 weeks.  
They actually never came and eliminated There's no snow removal or ice removal at  
all. When you walk out there, and they let the dog out you're just running on ice. We  
were scared for our life and even talking about I'm shaking. It really brings out  
traumatizing memories.  
Miracle: We missed out on a lot of work because of that dog. We would look out the  
window and see if he's out because that lady would leave him out for a very long  
time. He wasn’t on a leash or anything he was just pooping in the yard or the  
neighbor's yard. We would look out the window to see if we can make an escape to  
our car because I had to go to work in the morning and I couldn't even start a new job  
at that point. It didn't work out because I couldn’t make it to work because there's  
literally a killer dog outside. He would come up to our unit door and sniff under the  
door and scratch it and growl because he could smell my cat. A lot of the times we  
would want to get food delivered to our house and we couldn’t go down to the front  
door to get our food, so our food just sat there, and we just paid money for no reason  
for that food. I started doing grocery delivery services so I can make my own  
schedule specifically for that reason because I can't be on time to go to work during  
that specific time because he was out there. I never knew when he would be out or  
not which it made it really impossible to work.  
Waters: People shouldn’t have to go through this. Also, about that truck situation we  
had let Housing Hub know about it. They asked if we could take a picture knowing we  
already had issues with the tenants downstairs. They asked if we can please take a  
picture of the truck so they can know what it looked like. They take the picture that we  
clearly sent from our upstairs to us in a mass email asking if you know whose truck  
this is and that it needs to be moved the next day. Next day we come out and our  
tires have been popped. I wonder why? Maybe from retaliation. We expressed this to  
the office, and they said that they didn’t have anything to do with that and if you have  
any evidence to file a police report. No, I don't have evidence of these people  
popping my tire at 3 in the morning while I am asleep, but I know that they did it.  
There's black mold all over the ceiling. I just can't begin to start naming a list of  
problems the basement flooded completely. We're told we can't use our bathtub  
because it floods in the downstairs unit. Where in my lease does it say I can’t take a  
bath? I think that's up to you to be fixing that.  
Miracle: There is no ventilation in the bathroom so, it's really steamy and everything  
is just dripping in the bathroom, and the towels are damp. We are told that there's no  
ventilation in the house and that it's hot and moist and that no air circulates  
anywhere. Their response was to just open the window. It was wintertime and also  
the windows are literally like hip level, well the one of the bathroom is, so if I'm  
showering and the window is at hip level you can see stuff.  
Waters: You should have privacy in your own bathroom, and not to mention because  
there's no ventilation, so there's mold because if there's going to be heat there is  
going to be moisture, and there is going to be darkness, and that's where mold loves  
to be. All they do is cover it. The house itself, the floors are caving, and it is probably  
due to the moisture, and there are also splinters. We can't even walk in our house  
without sandals on because we're going to get splinters and our cat also gets  
splinters. We have to pull splinters out of her feet weekly from that. We've ended up  
just keeping our cat in her own room so that that doesn't happen anymore. But that's  
not something that we should be having to do. I shouldn’t be making all these  
compromises at all. The most recent was the attic, and our original lease we were  
allowed to store in the attic and basement. I don’t know when that changed. When we  
moved in, the tenants that we're downstairs they didn't have their things in the  
basement because the condition of the attic and the basement were both terrible, and  
everything was open to the outside. This house is not sealed from the outside and so  
there have been, ants, wasp, roaches, mice, and even a rat. We can't get our (AC)  
unit to get below 80 degrees right now because the circuitry is bad in the house. Also,  
it will not allow to have more than one AC unit running at once. You can’t plug in a  
vacuum and have the AC on at the same time. If I want to clean my house, I have to  
do it at a 90-degree heat or have the TV on. Things must be turned off. Combined  
with the fact that I'm only allowed to have one AC running and the houses isn’t sealed  
it, it's hot, it's miserable. It's literally unlivable, our food that is in our pantry goes bad  
within a day or two. All our produce and fruit get rotten because it's so hot. Last year  
on October 16th, I believe it is the date by law that the heat has to be able to be  
accessed by the tenants and it has to be on, and they didn't do it. They're the ones  
who sent out the email saying, that by law we must have it on by this date and didn't  
even do it until 2 days later. At that point, you're just breaking the law. We are being  
disrespected at this point and traumatized to be honest with you. I haven't seen a  
single person from Housing Hub except for the maintenance man since we moved.  
Their office has been closed the entire time due to COVID which okay I get it but if  
the doctors’ offices are open and masks are optional don't even use that as an  
excuse anymore. You're not doing your job and you just don't want people to have  
access to that because every time I call, I never get a call back even though they say  
they're going to. Recently, we were trying to renew our lease and a man name Steve  
sent us a link. I said, hey it's not working can you give me a call so we can figure this  
out, didn't call back. I leave a voicemail instead we got a text back. You don't get a  
call back from these people, but you'll get a text. It's like dealing with the high school  
lunchroom. I'm an adult that wants to get this problem solved. I can't do it whenever  
you feel like texting me, answer the phone, and get this problem solved. Still to this  
day we had to mail in a copy of the lease, and they said don't worry about it we got  
this and that it's fine. I have that text right here and then they just sent us another one  
through the portal saying they didn't get it. This is the most recent things, which feels  
like everything we do involving them is 10 steps long. I don't know why they think that  
they should have any sort of increase because of housing services that they're  
providing. They're not providing the ones that by law they should be providing and not  
only is this illegal and they're practices are wrong. I'm traumatized when these people  
walk in the room because what they represent to me and what I've gone through  
living at this address. The response that I get, it's one thing, and if I go through that I  
get things happen and that the world is not a great place, properties get old, things  
happen. If you want to work with me on it, and you want to treat me with some  
respect. I have rights, I have tenant rights, you disregard those, you disregard my  
concerns, and you disregard my safety, and you disregard the things that you say in  
the lease that you're supposed to be keeping up with. At this point, I'm not sure what  
they're doing.  
Moermond: We talked about a list of concerns. Some of them are what I would  
categorize as being behavioral, and some are physical building condition related. I'm  
going to follow-up in particular on the second category there, the physical condition.  
I'm going to go back to the wasp nest and just try to figure out what the location of  
that nest was relative to the truck and the rest of the property. I'm a little bit confused  
about that.  
Waters: I can use this piece of paper just as an example. The front of the house  
would be facing the street, which is here, and our driveway runs along the side of the  
house. We are on the upper unit, and we have a window right here on the side of the  
house right above the driveway. The truck had been pulled in kind of far, so it was  
directly under that window.  
Moermond: Was that wasp nest under truck or was it in the truck?  
Miracle: It was in the window of the house.  
Moermond: It was in the window of the house. A lower unit had a wasp nest, and it  
was being blocked by the truck so it couldn't be dealt with?  
Waters: It was on the outside of the house right above where it splits from the window  
downstairs to where it starts becoming upstairs. It's kind of the top, not exactly the  
window, but what comes out to go over across the window. They had found a little  
hole in there and had gone in there and somehow made it inside the walls and they  
were finding ways to come out into our living rooms, through vents through cracks in  
the window could have been holes from the floor or trim from the floor, and we could  
hear them.  
Miracle: We collected them and pretty much filled up a whole mason jar full of bees.  
Waters: There is a picture somewhere of them. We had to use the spray, and we  
couldn’t do much about it. We had to kill them every day when we got in there and  
they just kept flying in. We had to basically barricade ourselves in our bedroom until  
winter. Then the problem just took care of itself. Mother Nature took care of the  
problem, Housing Hub did not.  
Moermond: You talked about other kinds of infestations that have been problematic in  
addition to the wasp. You want to tell me a little bit more about that, for example, the  
timing, the nature what steps did you take. You know, just a little bit more because  
you kind of went through the list of all the different kinds of infestations that one might  
experience outside. I did not hear bedbugs, but I heard pretty much everything else.  
Tell me a little bit more about what you mean.  
Waters: Absolutely, well we tend to have all sorts of critters especially around the  
back door because it's not sealed to the outside so, anything just crawls in there. But  
the things that we have the biggest problems with are centipedes, and mice which  
are a huge issue. We let them know that we had found rodent droppings towards the  
end of the first year of living there. We have notified them about that and they said  
they'd have pest control come out and deal with it. We brought our cat out for the day  
came back didn’t smell anything or see anything. We clean later that week, and we  
look behind the fridge. They had those little Terro traps for ants, and I am really not  
sure how that's supposed to catch a mouse. That may not necessarily be the  
contractors or Housing Hub’s fault but maybe the communication of what the issue  
was. We still have mice there and they are getting into our food all the time, our  
clothes all the time, and they're just literally everywhere. We've gone up into the attic  
because it got kind of hot, and I think that's where everything is coming in because  
there's just baseball sized holes to the outside. There's about this much of a gap  
between my door outside of my unit and the attic right there, and if you follow the  
stairs down to the front door, same gap to the outside. The whole world can just  
come into our unit none of it is sealed. I know that there are squirrels in the attic.  
They said that they were going to hire some contractor to come and take care of that.  
They said that they will be here on a Friday to do the estimates, but I was there on a  
Friday, and nobody showed up. I tried to contact their office and ask them about it,  
and they said, oh no they are there. They told the Fire Inspector that he was coming,  
so I'd like to see if that's legitimate as well. If it's not, then the animals are going to  
just be continuing to come in. I don't care if I can't use the attic, but I don't want water  
getting in into my ceiling, and I don't want animals getting in. What if my cat gets  
rabies or we get bit or we have an infestation. I mean, mice poop can carry a lot of  
diseases.  
Miracle: Whenever they try taking care of the rodent droppings, they put all these little  
poison traps everywhere. I have a cat and I am afraid that my cat will eat those  
poison traps. I wasn't even aware that that's how they will be getting rid of the mice  
with little poison traps. If I would have known, I probably wouldn’t have called them  
and thought of a different solution because my cat could eat those poisons. They  
have poor solutions for everything when they want to. When we have an issue like  
our shower goes on a slant, and the curtain does not cover it only the square, but the  
whole slant triangle is completely open, and water is just everywhere. There's a lot of  
mold in our bathroom because of that reason. We had a maintenance man named  
Andy who came to help us with that situation. All he did was he just laid the shower  
curtain rod and said that we could rig it somehow into some weird way. I don't  
understand what he was trying to do but he left the project and just left the shower  
curtain rod right there on the floor. We had a few issues with that particular  
maintenance man. He was just a little mean, like kind of stern. My wife was taking a  
shower one day and he supposed to be gone on his break but he was supposed to  
be coming back eventually to fix our door that was unsealed clearly with gaps all  
around it. It's our back door and I told him my wife is showring right now, I know  
you're coming, but can you wait? He was persistent that it was going to be quick and  
pushes my door and starts walking to the kitchen to the door that needs to be fix. The  
shower and the bathroom are right in that kitchen area. I had to just grab some  
clothes out of the dresser and just throw it in there for her. It was just weird and  
awkward.  
Waters: The doors in the house none of them stay shut. That was the other problem,  
the bathroom door wasn't even shutting because it can’t shut. We've had incidences  
where they were supposed to give us a reasonable time of notice before them  
coming in. We had another issue the other day where she was in the shower, it  
seems to always happen lowering shower. They message us saying he's going to  
come by today. We responded with today it will be fine let me know when he's  
coming by because my wife is in the shower. She replied saying he's there outside. I  
was like OK; well, she's going to finish up her shower. I don't know who was in office  
that week, but every single person we talked to has the same attitude. I don't know  
what it is. I told her to give us 5 minutes and she said whatever. My wife said that she  
would hurry up because she just didn’t want to deal with the situation anymore, and  
we wanted to be present because in the past they have damaged our things while  
we're gone. We said if he can come in 5 minutes, and apparently now he's going to  
take his lunch and he's not going to comeback that day. It's like they play these little  
games when they do something right when it's a good time and available for them.  
Well, you didn't give me any notice. I don't know what you want me to do, and not to  
mention they turn the water off when they had the renovations downstairs happening.  
They didn't let us know in the middle of rush hour before school and work. There's no  
communication before the thing, and there is rarely communication after the thing.  
There's only communication if we open that up and it's because there's an issue. I  
would love to never have to call their office about anything ever. Again, that would be  
my dream come true. That just everything goes the way that it's supposed to go. I  
mean, shouldn’t that be expected, right? Other than like certain things happen all you  
know the sinks are not draining or this or that. It shouldn't be like wildlife migrating  
into my house because it's not sealed. There's a bunch of black mold on the ceiling of  
the bathroom. There's all this stuff going on. Even the stairs in the back are about to  
collapse. I am just counting and waiting for the day that I fall through the hazard.  
Miracle: I had a situation with my kidneys, which I was in the hospital for a while. I  
even missed my birthday because I was in the hospital. They finally let me go home,  
and I was home for about 3 days and started feeling really sick again. She called the  
paramedics and they had to come and pick me up. The paramedics are part of the  
Fire Department, and they had no idea how to get me down or up this house. I  
couldn't move, I was in a lot of pain because I've had surgeries and stuff done. They  
had a hard time getting me down the stairs and were trying to move to see what was  
stable enough. They commented how all the stairs were hazardous.  
Waters: Yeah, they were nervous. It’s just been too much. I don't see how they can  
justify an increase, I really don't. I understand with inflation, operating cost, and  
everything else that goes up. It goes up for everybody. We can’t even feed ourselves.  
If you did what you're supposed to do, and you've been doing it the whole time we  
wouldn’t be sitting here. If you did your job, I have respect for that.  
Miracle: When they do their job, they do it in a mean way, like nonprofessional. It’s as  
if they were mad at you that you even called. We were not trusting maintenance to  
come to our house anymore without a notice specifically in our unit because we had  
a situation where a maintenance man said, hey, I'm coming to your house, are you  
going to be there? We're like yeah, we are literally 2 minutes down the road, but yes,  
we'll be there. I'm thinking that he probably won't go into the unit because we said we  
will be there in 2 minutes, but he did. Since we don't put our stuff in the storage area  
in the house because the storage areas are very poor and leak. We take care of our  
stuff, and we have them all in tubs and in stacks. Our living room is almost unusable  
to be lounging in because all our storage is in our living room. He came in and he  
need to see the thermostat. I don't know why he had to move my stuff because he  
could have just gone over them, but he didn’t. He just pulled my tubs out and all of  
my stuff fell on the floor. My guitar was all broken and had chips all over it. My bow  
and arrow that my dad gave me for my birthday was on the floor. I had a collection of  
colorful clear jars, and they were on the floor, too. I couldn't believe that it looked like  
we got robbed that day. That cuts why we just don't want them coming to our house  
anymore without us being present. Every time they do have a maintenance thing, it's  
like we're going to come anyway, even if you're not there. We're just trying to get  
there as fast as we can back home. I could have just been out and working on a  
grocery order, but I had to leave that order. This place makes it almost impossible for  
me to even work a regular job. I don't want to be working this grocery job anymore.  
I'm not making much income because of COVID. It's not a service anymore that  
people need because they can go to grocery stores.  
Moermond: I'm going to bring us back for a minute. You had mentioned the black  
mold and explained this is in the bathroom and it’s because a ventilation issue for  
you, and you mentioned splinters. Can you elaborate a little bit about where those  
splinters are coming from and just what's going on with that?  
Waters: Sure. The floors in the unit are very uneven, and they are kind of starting to  
cave in, especially in the living room area. I don't know what kind of trim they have  
but it seems like they have metal trim on wood flooring, so that's probably one of the  
issues there. It's caving in and a spot right by the trim where there is a step off on to  
the tile floor down there. It started to cave in which has made the wood split all the  
way down and along those panels. It's the only walkway in the house, and it’s the  
only place to walk, you can’t avoid walking on it and because there's that step down.  
It's gaining weight up and it decided to be the place to cave, and all the wood  
connected is kind of parallel a split a long that wood. We have our shower on and you  
can feel the moist in the whole house for hours afterwards, it's like a rainforest. I'm  
assuming, that some of that moisture lifted that wood and because of that there are  
splinters. The floors are waiting to fall through.  
Miracle: You can see that the woods are not even level with that metal trim that they  
laid in front of it. The wood is completely going under it. It's very uneven and that  
walkway is the living room just area. It's kind of confusing, but it is a living room as  
well. You can’t even shuffle your feet, run or anything because you will automatically  
get a splinter. Even chunks of the wood floor come off, and then they're just laying all  
over the place and just making my floor dirty. There is wood everywhere to the point  
where I feel like I am at Menards.  
Moermond: The air conditioner unit, I take it we're looking at a window air conditioner.  
Is that provided by them?  
Waters: No.  
Moermond: That's your own?  
Waters: Yes.  
Moermond: I have a lot of notes. Is there something we didn't talk about? Otherwise,  
I'm going to offer staff, an opportunity to ask questions. After that, I’ll turn it over to  
ownership, representation.  
Ferkinhoff: I don't have questions.  
Moermond: Mr. Sass?  
Sass: I do not.  
Moermond: All right, are there any other things you want to say before we switch  
gears for a few minutes?  
Waters: I just want to touch base again on the circuit of the house. We did have the  
maintenance come out and said basically, it’s an old house and there is basically not  
much they can do about it and not to have stuff on at the same time. But if you look at  
the fuse in the bottom, you can see that one is for this room and one is for the other,  
and then they have an entire side of the house wired to another fuse. We're always  
having to go down there. Sometimes we have the regular things plugged in that  
we've learned to keep plugged in and will just be sitting there trying to just enjoy a  
meal and the lights go off, and down to the basement again we go. It’s to the point  
now where the circuit is bad that we go to flip a light switch and the light doesn’t come  
on. We have to sit there and wrench with the light switch just to get the lights on in  
our kitchen or bathroom, and in the fridge room, kind of the room that the fridge in the  
pantry is located in by the back door.  
Moermond: Thank you for your comments. Mr. Collins, I see you and you have a  
gentleman with you who's name I might have heard before, but I cannot remember.  
Herding: Ben Herding  
Moermond: You heard a lot there and I was kind dividing some of the behavioral  
kinds of things from the physical conditions. What comments do you have based on  
what you're hearing?  
Collins: There's a lot to unpack there. You can see why being a landlord may be  
tough. Just on the behavioral stuff this was during COVID there were no evictions. It  
was a handicap TSA dog that had years of service time.  
Moermond: Was it a service dog?  
Collins: Yeah. You won’t win in court with that one. We worked with her, and her  
medical helper, and medical worker.  
Herding: I mean, her roommate, also passed away.  
Moermond: Okay, so the person downstairs with her dog had a roommate that  
passed away, just so we are in the same page.  
Collins: Yes. I mean, we heard all their concerns. Two people living in the same  
space can be challenging. I tell people at all times that trying to get neighbors to like  
each other who aren't even living in the unit, other properties on the block, city, state,  
whenever it's hard to balance and make everybody happy. But as soon as we could,  
we did move her along. It just goes to show that we don't want to throw people on the  
street. This is a handicapped woman. She may have had some mental issues, but  
we're not just going to throw people on the street. We're going to work with them and  
try to move them as dignified as we can. I think we did that. She did have a balance  
of $7,000 when she left, and we would love to recoup that. But it's kind of one of  
those things that it's a community thing. I mean, we're going to work with the  
community and we're going to try to do the best we can for all. Sometimes you can't  
make everybody happy. Some of the statements that we never came out, that's false.  
We have records of that we always came out a lot of times and we came out and  
they sent us away. We would say we're coming on Tuesday, and they would reply we  
can't do that. Pest control was pushed away, and we can't just tow cars because then  
I'm getting sued and I will be paying to get it out of the impound lot. We have to be  
careful when we're towing, and why we are towing. I think we did the right thing there.  
We finally got it moved and we worked with both tenants to get that done and defuse  
that situation.  
Moermond: Can I circle back on the vehicle. Did the vehicle belong to anybody  
associated with the building?  
Collins: She was a helper of the handicapped woman.  
Moermond: That person just left their vehicle there?  
Collins: I think she was just parking there. I don't think she just left it there, I think  
she's moving in and out and they didn't like that it was there. It shouldn’t be there  
since it wasn't registered to her. To tow someone’s vehicle that's helping a  
handicapped woman it’s pretty much not something I want to do, we've got to be  
careful. Fire and Safety was just out, and we passed in 2020 with a B that's a pretty  
good grade for a duplex. They did call Fire and Safety again once the lease renewal  
came out. I don't know if that was just a tiny issue, but all of a sudden Fire and Safety  
comes out which that’s fine, we welcome them, we want to make sure our tenants are  
safe. They wrote us up on some issues in the attic and none of the other issues were  
addressed in the write up that we heard.  
Moermond: I am going to circle back on that in just a second. I heard from staff that  
this is a triplex, not a duplex.  
Herding: It is a duplex. I think that they would give a couple properties on Conway  
that the addresses make it seem odd the way it's laid out, but this building is a  
duplex.  
Moermond: Okay, the Fire and Safety Inspection document attached to the record is  
for a complaint-based inspection. Inspectors would investigate that complaint, but not  
conduct the full Certificate of Inspection of Occupancy of the building. Your inspector  
previously gave the property a B grade.  
Collins: One of the reasons it's not completed yet is because Fire and Safety comes  
out and they catch other things that weren't in the complaint. The chimney is written  
up and will cost $4,500. What other issues, pest control, it's pretty much stated  
clearly in the pet addendum how we treat mice. We can put sticky traps out, but we  
will be running around all day just retrieving sticky traps. Once a mouse goes in a  
sticky trap a tenant calls us to come and get the sticky trap because there is a mouse  
on it. Best way to get rid of mice is poison and kill all the critters. That's what our  
outside vendors do, and it's clearly stated in the pet addendum.  
Moermond: Can you just refresh my memory, is sending out pest control something  
that you have on a schedule or is that done on a tenant complaint basis?  
Collins: Good question, anything 3-units and above we do on a schedule. We have  
day traps outside anything smaller than that it's if we get in the complaint and we go  
out and treat. Most properties that have pets, whether it's cats or not, weather they  
are good mice catchers or not, with food source on the floor you will see mice.  
Moermond: Other comments based on what you heard?  
Collins: Yeah, one about the documentation. It may seem like there's a concern  
about avoidance of phone calls. But for both parties, something I stress to our staff is  
to get documentation through text message or emails so that there's not a “he said,  
she said” back and forth. Really, that is to just document that process for our records  
for them and for us to show where we can come back and see what really transpired,  
instead of saying, well they said this on the phone and now they're saying this. A lot  
of that reason isn't any sort of avoidance, more really of a protocol with our office and  
to make sure everything is properly documented.  
Moermond: Okay, so if somebody is reaching out to your office, they could get  
someone on the phone at least during regular business hours?  
Herding: Absolutely, and even after hours if you call our number it goes to our  
after-hours on-call service to be able to put in maintenance requests which are  
dispatched to our on-call maintenance staff. Joe or I are monitoring those calls, and  
we even have a handful of people that are monitoring even after call weekend  
service, too.  
Collins: It's something that's necessary. We have over 5 thousand tenants, so we  
document everything. A lot of that they said we hear in bits and pieces but there is  
documentation and always follow up on what we're doing. I was confused hearing  
that we never showed up, when we showed up a lot.  
Moermond: Lets focus on the times where there was maybe a little bit of  
communication difficulty between the maintenance person showing up unexpectedly  
on a couple of occasions, says the tenants, and the notice issue. What's going on  
with that?  
Collins: Yeah, I think we have one in there.  
Herding: It was a few instances of text messages that unit two is refusing service  
today, so will reschedule some time. This was for our pest control vendor, so we had  
to let them know that unit two was refusing service and will contact them to  
reschedule. We also needed to cancel maintenance because of what she was  
claiming on the tenant about a tire popping. Looking back to see when the tenant  
roommate in unit one passed away, and that the tenant in the other unit was in a  
wheelchair, that would be a lot of effort on their part.  
Moermond: But you said that the vehicle, the truck, belonged what sounds like, her  
service worker.  
Collins: We gave notice, and we also do tell tenants every month that submitting a  
maintenance request is allowing us entry because of the nature of that. They are  
giving us that permission to go in if it's granted to or text to reach out.  
Moermond: What are the parameters around that?  
Collins: I'm sorry, what do you mean?  
Moermond: You're saying making that request is granting approval to enter the unit.  
What are the parameters around entering that unit? It certainly isn't that you can  
come by whenever you want. Tell me what the rules are that your business uses.  
Collins: You get an automatic response saying, hey we received your work order  
someone will be dispatch shortly. If you have a water issue, fire, or flood if it's  
immediate. It is coming same day. But anything that's regularly dispatched, the  
worker picks up the phone leaving their last job, and tells the tenant, they are 30  
minutes away. There is a time window, and we usually are running at next day  
service. We give tenants at least 30 minutes to an hour.  
Moermond: What happens if on a Tuesday evening I notice that the sink is leaking,  
and I text you letting you know. How do you balance the 24-hour notice vs. the most  
efficient response. It must be that if you have a tech available at 8am the next day  
somebody at the residence could be getting ready to run out to work.  
Collins: There's an online person that pings on a call. We also have a backup  
dispatcher that works from home. She covers from 5 o'clock till midnight, and she  
watches anything that comes through and then it will be flagged. If it's something  
that's an emergency, she'll contact the tenant. Is this something that can be  
controlled? If you can't, we're going to send somebody out tonight. Is that fine or can  
it be controlled? Yes, it can, okay, somebody will be there tomorrow at 8 in the  
morning. That's how we can track that down.  
Herding: It's very normal business hours for a maintenance technician because that's  
when they work, except, for our on-call maintenance technician who's answering the  
phone. It's costly to the owner to send out maintenance after hours, so we do reach  
out just to make sure that it is warranted. If it is between those hours, I would even  
say probably closer to 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. are those normal business hours. We have  
tenants who submit work orders but then say they refuse entry, and that kind of  
contradicts a request for help so we seek for clarity on that, unless it's a common  
area where the outside of the building. It's hard for our technicians to give exact time.  
We try not to set those expectations or allow appointments because of the amount of  
work that is being juggled, but they do try to reach out when they're on their way.  
Collins: They can deny entry, and we have that a lot where today is not going to work  
can you guys come tomorrow afternoon? That is in the technician’s radar, and they  
know it. When you start giving those times like we're going to be there between 9 or  
11, and you don't show up and no one stays at home. It's a nightmare.  
Moermond: I heard the bathtub wasn't allowed to be used, what do you have in your  
records on that?  
Collins: Did you see anything in there? And I did not.  
Herding: I mean, there's a work order. This is a recent one from February that there's  
no water in the toilet and the shower. It could have been something that it wasn't able  
to be used while it was being fixed. But that's all I see about the toilet and shower.  
Moermond: Any other comment?  
Collins: Well, just for clarification, the tenant down below, the last time she was in  
there, I believe it was March of 2022, and she might have been gone by that time.  
This was about a year.  
Herding: That unit was vacant up until very recently. The tenant was evicted and had  
been gone for well over a year.  
Collins: They did sign the lease after that incident.  
Moermond: Would you be willing to provide the documentation on the pest control  
services for this particular property?  
Collins: Yeah, we could submit that.  
Moermond: What do you do when you have situations like this dog? Certainly, it isn’t  
the first problematic dog you've encountered. I heard it was unleashed and poop in  
the yard wasn’t picked up. It seems like that's a big issue. I know that it's ultimately  
the tenant’s responsibility to manage, if they're allowed to have a pet but the  
addendum does have some expectations about pets are managed. It sounds like this  
situation is inconsistent with what that addendum describes. When there's a problem  
do you provide tie outs for the dog? For example, I let the dog out to use the facilities  
that are the outside, but you hear the problem, how do you handle that? Because it is  
a tenant issues and it's also a management issue. Tell me more about what your  
practice is for this.  
Collins: Believe it or not, we don't see it a ton of these. But in this case, we did need  
that a police report. I mean, it's always good to have a police report, especially in the  
COVID days. If you wanted to evict you had to show that the tenant was dangerous  
or a friend, family member or pet was dangerous to others. That was an important  
part of getting an eviction. Those were very costly, which is something we would  
have done but without that police report we don’t have anything to go to court with. It  
can become a “he said, she said.” We need to be pretty bulletproof, if we're going to  
evict somebody from their home over a behavioral issue. We need documentation,  
fines levied, before just asking to remove your pet or just threatening eviction.  
Sometimes that is good enough but in this situation trying to move remove a tenant  
that is handicap with a service dog we thought the best route would be a police  
report.  
Moermond: So, did you initiate any kind of investigation as the property owner without  
the police report?  
Collins: Yes, but we never saw the dog running just wild. We have probably 15- 20  
tenants on that block and no one else was complaining about a dog loose running  
around. I think a lot of the problem was between the 2 tenants and how that kind  
ended up playing out.  
Moermond: I’m a dog owner with a fenced yard. My yard wasn’t fence when I moved  
in and I had to use tie outs until it was. I would have to say that without putting a point  
on where the dog poops it gives you an idea of where the dog gets to go. If it's  
wintertime and I'm wondering, would you look for something like that? You know if the  
dogs being reported as being kind at large.  
Collins: I think she did have somebody come over and help out. Of course, when the  
snow melts, we see the pile. We have pet owners who are not responsible and that's  
addressed through a fine or the threat of eviction. It was just a unique situation over  
there. We have text messages that say if you don't take care of this dog, I'm going to  
shoot it and I'm going to shoot her. When you get those text messages, there's not a  
lot of cordial conversation you can have with the tenant.  
Herding: A note from Lynn calling in that they are making threats that they will shoot  
the dog. It's a note from our customer tenant coordinator talking to the lower unit.  
Moermond: She said, she said rule would apply to that as well.  
Collins: Exactly.  
Moermond: And your investigation would be? Did you talk to the lower unit tenant  
about their dog?  
Herding: Yeah, so there's a lot of requests to talk to the tenant. I need to ask why the  
dog is not on a leash, why is the dog poop not been cleaned up. We have been  
talking to Lynn about the lease violations for those pets. Part of that pet addendum  
has been documented on here, too. Again, you've got to remember that November of  
2021 our hands were tied in our abilities to make certain moves above just that  
constant requesting and checking up on and working with that tenant. But I do see  
documentation requested and a follow-up.  
Moermond: Last question for you all, one of the things that is listed as a reason for  
you seeking an increase above the exception to the 3% cap is an increase to the  
housing services. What would that be?  
Collins: Did we even include that?  
Herding: It was one of the checked boxes. Usually, that is maintenance and upkeep  
and even management fees.  
Moermond: Isn’t that something that's included in operating expenses and not in  
housing services? I’m looking to staff here.  
Sass: Housing services are services provided by the landlord. Let's say that under  
the previous ownership, there was not landscaping offered but with this new  
ownership there is landscaping offered. That could be increased housing services.  
Moermond: Thinking about it that way, a new service that is being provided not an  
increase in costs that would be captured in the maintenance and operating.  
Herding: Yes, there’s a line here for landscaping, and it looks like 2019 there is not.  
They did about $2,000 in work in 2022, specifically in landscaping.  
Moermond: A part of it is the $2,000 increase in landscaping, where are you getting  
that number from?  
Herding: It’s from the accounting from the owner from that general ledger. The profit  
and loss statement that was reviewed and filled out for the operating expenses  
before coming here.  
Moermond: What kind of a new service would it be on top of what’s already  
accounted for an increase in expenses. Because there's also an increase for a  
particular unit that would be taken into account as capital expenses that are  
amortized. There's a place for to be documented within the forms. I'm not familiar with  
the place in the forms were like specific housing services would be asked for and  
written out. Is that something that's asked, like if you have an increase in housing  
services, is that a specific question?  
Sass: There is a spot to define what type of services are offered by the landlord in the  
MNOI, the copy with the full financial information doesn't include that page. It is not  
one of the earlier ones which I can find in the forms.  
Moermond: So, you may have that information?  
Sass: I give me a second to look  
.
Moermond: That was pretty much what I was wanting to ask you more about. Do you  
have comments about the splinters?  
Collins: Do you have any? I don't have any.  
Herding: I have to look back and see the worker order information, but I have not  
gotten through every work order in front of me.  
Moermond: How do you handle if that were to come forward as a complaint? Let’s  
say you get a text saying that this location in the property, the wood floors are  
splintering and it’s problematic.  
Collins: We send out a tech and take pictures. Is it an easy fix? Is it something that  
we would have to cut the wood floor and replaced the boards that are splintering.  
We've done that and we will do that, but nothing rings a bell of getting any of that. My  
question goes back to when they had Safety and Inspection out, which I like that  
because they can write it all up, tell me what I have to do, and tell me if you think it's  
an issue. The last time Safety and Inspection came out, all of their attention was on  
that attic.  
Harding: I guess it’s all costs related unless you're talking about additional services  
and those have not changed. But obviously those costs continue to go along with  
everything else under operating expenses. Even this property too for the current year  
operating at a deficit for the year 2022. It obviously plays a factor into the request for  
operating costs.  
Moermond: Due to vacancy?  
Herding: We talked about that earlier. The vacancy and eviction that took place and  
repairs related to that unit, meaning that unit and now the attic. It will be at lease a  
$5,000 hit.  
Moermond: All right.  
Collins: I will make an offer. It seems like this place is falling apart and is in great  
disrepair, so I would offer a no notice if they want to vacate. I won’t hold them for the  
60-day notice.  
Waters: How much time would we have to get our stuff out.  
Collins: As long as you want. If you need another month that’s okay by me.  
Moermond: July 30th you mean.  
Collins: If you need the end of July that's fine, or if you need the end of this month  
that's fine. Whatever. I don't want you living in something that you guys don't want to  
live in.  
Moermond: I had some landlords say 0% increase. I hear your story, I am going to  
work with you, and we will work on the just cause vacancy later. I've heard other  
kinds of arrangements and what I say to this whole conversation is that's between  
you guys, and however, you manage your business among you all that's a private  
contract between you all. It won't affect how I treat this particular situation and  
whether or not the unit is vacated I'm going to move forward with writing up a  
recommendation for the council on this appeal, so unless the appeal is withdrawn or  
unless you withdraw your request for an exception to the rent cap. In which case my  
letter to the council will be relatively short. All right, are you amending your  
application to remove a portion of it that says you're increasing costs related to an  
increase in housing services? Or is that something that just happened here?  
Herding: It can if that makes sense. If it was an unclear definition of what we thought  
housing services was to that scope.  
Moermond: Well, I'm not going to say that it is it, that's your call. I'm just asking as it  
seemed to be coming up in conversation. You can keep it in the application, or we  
could verbally amend it right now. It doesn't matter to me. I just wanted to kind of say  
that.  
Herding: It is not going to move the needle any more then beyond 2. If it works to  
keep it simple then you can definitely take that off.  
Moermond: All right, thank you. I will ask for any last comments from the tenants, and  
we can wrap up our meeting. All right, Ms. Miracle, Ms. Waters, you get the  
opportunity to have the last word. What would you like to say?  
Waters: It's not that we refuse them coming in, it's the fact that we put out these  
maintenance requests and they came, and they did some stuff but not all. Some of  
them were canceled out by them, and I know there's no way to have any proof of  
that, however, we did make phone calls. When you're just hoping that everyone does  
their job, and you're not thinking the whole time I should be documenting everything  
that I'm doing, so that if something does go wrong. We're lucky that we did have  
some of the pictures and some of the things that we did have. However, as far as the  
dog that was downstairs, emotional support animal, I'm pretty sure nowadays you  
can just go online and you can buy a certificate for a certain amount of money and  
call anything emotional service animal, and that dog was a close to 100-pound pit  
bull. I have a video on my phone right now of a gentleman, doesn't live in my house,  
running down the street away from this dog, as he's biting his ankles and then  
coming back with his truck, and shooting snow, all in the front of the house because  
he got attacked. Either way, there’s 15 other people that live in that live in that block  
that are tenants with Housing Hub. How are they going to know that the tenant in the  
bottom of our unit is with Housing Hub, and that they could call Housing Hub for that  
dog? That statement did not make no sense to me, like here is a bunch of other  
people from Housing Hub living on this block. Why haven't they called to report this  
dog? How would they know that that dog belongs to a tenant of yours? I know there's  
houses on the block, and I couldn't begin to tell you which ones belong to Housing  
Hub, so how would they. Some of these justifications that I signed a lease after this?  
Yes, I signed the lease because unfortunately, I have an eviction on my record  
because my uncle became the inheritor of my grandparent’s estate, and I was living  
in their home. He ended up evicting me from that property so that he could gain the  
monetary value from that property quicker. That’s why I have an eviction on my  
record, not because I was a bad tenant but because from family. The reason that we  
have to continue to sign this lease is because we appreciated in the beginning how  
Housing Hub gave me this opportunity even though I have a criminal record, and an  
eviction on my record. But they allowed me the opportunity to tell them what  
happened in the beginning, and they listen with open ears and said, hey you know  
what things happen and we're willing to give people a chance. I do agree with the  
statement he made as far as like they try to work with people because I experienced  
that too in the very beginning, which is why this whole other part process is so  
shocking. I understand that when you're in charge of running a company it's hard to  
manage every single employee. I understand some behavioral things may just be  
how some people act, I understand that. Either way at the end of the day, I'm not  
signing that lease again because it's a beautiful property. I am kind of stuck to be  
honest with you, and not to mention about the loss of wages because when you are  
trying to go out and that dog is there, and it's not being leash it’s hard to go. I did call  
the police and it's on the police that they didn't make their report. It seems to me what  
happens a lot is I've been raised to be told, okay if an emergency happens to you call  
the police, or you call the person in charge and you tell them what's going on, and  
they will help you in doing the next right thing. I've yet to experience that in the City of  
Saint Paul, and that's very unfortunate.  
Moermond: Question, did the eviction on your record did that happen in Ramsey  
County?  
Waters: No, it did not.  
Moermond: Did that happen in Minnesota?  
Waters: Yes, it did.  
Moermond: Do you think that your income-qualified to work with legal aid?  
Waters: Possibly? I'm under Supplemental Security Income at the moment and I  
don't have a job.  
Moermond: The reason I bring this up is because they do work with people to have  
evictions expunged from the record. That is something now that courts will consider  
your circumstances. You're talking about family and other kinds of things going on  
there, you're not talking about a traditional landlord-tenant kind of relationship. I put  
that to you as something that's available. I always tell people this and I will give you  
the brochure for the House Calls program. I'm hearing you talk about income and the  
ability to support yourselves and a lot of things impacting on that in different ways. I  
just want to make sure you're aware of SNAP and that you're aware of Health  
Insurance options that would be available to you. Is that something that you're on top  
of and have good information on?  
Waters: Yes, I currently receive a $69 a month from SNAP. That's all that they'll do.  
Moermond: Are you aware of food shelf kind of things as well? How about your health  
insurance, do you have health insurance? I will give you this information anyway, but  
I will suggest reaching out and talking about your background that is impacting your  
ability to find rental housing. Get on that now, so that you're able to approach your  
next situation possibly without any of that out there. That's something that I want you  
to take away from this. All right, anything else?  
Miracle: I have one more thing, the tenant who lived downstairs before, maybe the  
lady that was taken care of her was a support person. But I do know that when we  
were starting to live there, we started seeing a lot of traffic come in our house. Very  
sketchy music, very sketchy trucks, very sketchy environment. I can even hear the  
dog barking like crazy because he is wound up. She might have been disabled, but I  
don't think it was like that kind of way. I think she was involved with some bad stuff,  
as well as that lady that was taking care of her. The truck was not taken that day from  
that lady that was taking care of her, it was taken by this weird group of people.  
That's not our first time like I saw them take the truck I remember them because one  
night they went up to our unit and they were banging on our door really late in the  
middle of the night asking if we could move our car because they're scared because  
the police are coming after them. They want the us to get out of bed to literally move  
our car so they can hide that. The following day I had to go to work, and the truck  
wound up being in our driveway. That group of people did not live there, and they  
almost acted like they owned the house. We had no space or privacy because  
random drug addict people would come to our unit door and knock on our door and  
ask us to do things. We didn’t want to get involved with these people. When I did see  
them ta  
Referred to the City Council due back on 10/18/2023